[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
Sherri L Mitchell
smitchel at email.arizona.edu
Fri Jan 21 20:29:18 PST 2011
Hello All:
I am new to blogging so please be patient with me as I find my way. I would
like to begin by stating clearly that I am not a permaculture expert. I am
simply a woman who has some basic understandings about how we, as
inhabitants of this planet, are able to live in harmony with our environment
and from that place of harmony are able co-create a collective vision.
Having been raised in the "third world of America" on an American Indian
Reservation, I find that certain generalizations, though certainly
understood, may not cast an accurate image of our potential futures. In
urban centers there is without question an elitist racial structure
connected to land ownership and subsequently to the ease of opportunity for
food production. However, in many parts of the world it is the rural poor
who maintain individual plots in order to meet the basic needs of the
family. In addition, the practice of small scale personal food production is
currently on the rise amongst diverse groups globally. These practices
include the restoration of ancient seeds and traditional planting practices
within American Indian communities, the emergence of community gardening
projects throughout North America, small scale food production enterprises
in West Africa, a strong personal food production movement amongst the youth
in Japan and the creation of more and more traditional Dachniks in remote
areas of Siberia. I see the growth of permaculture across the planet as a
piece of a larger interconnected movement toward renewed connectivity to
source. This particular global movement feels very similar to countless
historical accounts of related movements that coincided with other large
scale shifts for the planet. People the world over, whether they are privy
to information regarding the acceleration of global destruction or not, are
beginning to put up stores for a "winter" that they sense is on its way.
What is most interesting to me about the discussion is the idea of
fragmentation in this larger design.
When I consider what is happening on the planet from a spiritual perspective
it appears seamless. To me, like many of you, the issue of justice is not an
issue that can be separated from the creation of equal shares or from any of
the other fundamental human rights that are currently on the table. The fact
that these rights are on the "table" helps to inform us of their
interconnectedness to these discussions. That said, this does not mean that
we must delineate black and white rules or strict codes of conduct that have
the potential to introduce unnecessary friction into the community that is
being formed. One can simply provide guidance related to the specific ideals
that you are seeking to promote, such as kindness, generosity and
compassion. Each individual may have their own understanding of what these
concepts mean. Dictated rules may not align with all of these individualized
understandings. If you collect a compilation of words or phrases associated
with these ideals and post them in various places around your space you
create an environment that is not only all inclusive, but is also primed for
the emergence of those ideals. Think about the work of Masaru Emoto, he is
the Japanese scientist who did the water crystal tests. We are all comprised
largely of water. The crystals within the water respond to the meaning of
the words and phrases that we put forth. Creating words and phrases that
coincide with your intent for today and into the future is a simple way to
set a framework for the environment that you wish to create. For many years
I used this same practice to address hate speech in schools. After seeing
the slides of the water crystals that were exposed to negative language as
opposed to those exposed to positive language, the kids easily understood
that one's molecular structure could be changed as a result of the language
that they were exposed to over time. It is the adults who tend to complicate
things. What is being sought is not the structuring of a society built upon
a series of fragmented ideologies, it is the creation of a lifeway that is
steeped in awareness of one's connectivity to the elements of creation. The
individual is the first step in that evolution. It will never be possible to
create rules that will bring forth an evolution of consciousness, which is
really what is being dealt with here. It is only by building an environment
that supports the growth of individuals and allows for the emergence of
their own inherent wisdom that we will succeed in shifting the paradigm that
has lead to the current state of destruction. My suggestion is to think of
ways to bring forth and harmonize all of the positive behaviors that you
seek to cultivate rather than focusing on the things that you would like to
avoid. This way you create the vibrational frequency that will attract the
energies capable of manifesting the vision that you are collectively
holding. Of course, this is simply one view. I look forward to continued
discussion.
peace
Sherri
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Chris G <galanis_chris at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hi all - one thing i find fascinating in these discussions is how we
> construct both past and future utopias based on *extremely* subjective
> variables. perhaps it's the difficulty in imagining anything outside of a
> context for which we have experience.which leads me to contemplate exactly
> what the "goal" of much of our work is. taking even just Rachel and
> Harshal's messages as examples (both of which resonate with me and i don't
> mean any disrespect in analyzing them) of assumptions:
>
> - all middle class are white
> having spent most of my life in the cities of montreal and toronto, two
> extremely multicultural cities, the ethnic profile of the middle class has
> changed tremendously from the 1960's to today. demographically, that shift
> will only increase over time. at least in urban areas, i imagine the
> generalizing of middle-class as "white" is a projection that will likely be
> less and less accurate in our lifetimes.
>
> - white middle class are the only people with access to backyards
> again, i see the opposite trend, where people of my generation, no matter
> the ethnic background, are buying up gaggles of condos on the periphery of
> inner cities - none of these have backyards. in fact the areas i see that do
> have gardens in cities i'm familiar with are the older run down
> neighbourhoods where there is often a large population of recent immigrants.
> i'm not even going to take new cookie-cutter subdivisions into account
> because it's my assumption that anyone who wants to live in a suburb is
> probably not trying to save the planet thru permaculture. rather, i see networks
> like this <http://www.landshare.net/letsgrow> are probably a better
> reflection of people's interest in issues of permaculture and social
> justice.
>
> - when civilization collapses small groups of urban elite will be able to
> sustain their urban gardens peacefully
> this just makes me start to imagine all kinds of horrible scenarios (ie.
> Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"). If anything in history has been proven, it's
> that in the wake of civil collapse, things get brutal, nasty, and life
> becomes survival through the threat and act of physical violence. It's also
> pretty safe to assume that the uncontrolled fires, pollution from destroyed
> industry, and lack of clean water and waste removal will make any kind of
> urban farming impossible.
>
> - before the industrial era, everyone lived in small tribal societies who
> produced a minimal impact on the landbases they relied on
> i can't even begin to go into why this is a historical perspective which
> bears no resemblance to reality. past human cultures have been as varied and
> complex as one could ever imagine.
>
> - when civilization collapses, we can go back to living like these small
> tribal societies once did
> i'm afraid that we will have polluted our landbases and altered climate to
> such an extent that it would be impossible to support anything close to
> present day population numbers on the untainted resources which still exis
> t, no matter what structures we put in place.
>
> sorry, that all sounds pretty nihilistic - and - i'm curious what motivates
> us (me?) to do this work, and what, really, is the expectation and/or
> outcome that we're working towards?
>
> thanks y'all, and thank-you for caring enough to explore these issues.
>
> - chris galanis
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 1/21/11,
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>* wrote:
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>
> From: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
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> Received: Friday, January 21, 2011, 2:37 PM
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)
> 2. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Harshal Deshmukh)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:28 -0800
> From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> intersect" <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> Message-ID: <7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3 at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it
> permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i
> could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we
> call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like
> to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if
> we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or
> to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the
> ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is
> not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the
> umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and
> seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really
> ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to
> backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all
> the interlinked issue
> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just in
> a different context...
>
> Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these
> concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The
> oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the
> country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except
> Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks
> to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to
> prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because
> transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance.
> The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had
> thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
> areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we
> want the future to look like?
>
> Rachel
>
> On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
>
> > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not
> permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement.
> I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first
> taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for
> achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.
> Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook. He
> also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't
> contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the
> principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since
> ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything
> could technically be included in what we call permaculture.
> >
> > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic
> permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for
> bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely
> mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets
> and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for
> rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged
> by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we
> should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella
> of permaculture?
> >
> > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas
> about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and
> reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and
> microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what
> nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of
> a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in
> permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be
> considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does
> include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is
> just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything
> like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That
> depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to
> answer questions like this for themselves.
> >
> > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that
> practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to
> achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should
> offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it
> permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as
> people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but
> should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own
> personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant
> for an open discussion like this one.
> >
> > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific
> social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be
> corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all
> believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing
> permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture
> is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one
> that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission to
> fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply
> practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together?
> We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more
> effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working
> within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to
> create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd
> try to give the discussion context.
> >
> > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.
> >
> > ~Larry
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <jasonamcdaniel at mac.com<http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com>>
> wrote:
> > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many
> beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on
> permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice
> movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the
> hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.
> >
> > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that
> "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines
> justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of
> political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on
> my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as
> Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net>wrote:
> >
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> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800
> > > From: Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com>
> >
> > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> > > intersect" <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing
> > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will
> wither.
> > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these
> > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what
> others
> > > think about this.
> > >
> > > ~Larry
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >wrote:
> > >
> > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We
> need
> > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of
> living. We
> > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about
> > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we
> live,
> > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,
> though, i
> > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other
> > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.
> And that
> > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if
> we
> > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own
> food?
> > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just
> > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?
> > >>
> > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of
> actively
> > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the
> > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our
> neighborhoods are
> > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not
> everybody
> > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have
> to
> > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am
> troubled
> > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.
> > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary
> culture"
> > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female
> dichotomy does
> > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.
> > >>
> > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me,
> a
> > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is
> supported by
> > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if
> we
> > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more
> formal
> > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow
> reflect
> > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)
> > >>
> > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:
> > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of
> > >> justice?
> > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is
> distributed
> > >> unjustly?
> > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?
> > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove
> obstacles
> > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?
> > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?
> Are
> > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we
> overcome
> > >> those obstacles?
> > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how
> > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?
> > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe
> it
> > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge
> > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing
> everything
> > >> else will follow?
> > >>
> > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.
> Also,
> > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do
> incorporate
> > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do
> this?
> > >>
> > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!
> > >>
> > >> Rachel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:
> > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just
> > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still
> > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond
> the
> > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice
> much
> > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked
> at the
> > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more
> > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and
> > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social
> > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader
> definition.
> > >>
> > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues
> > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):
> > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of
> environmental
> > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)
> > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans
> > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the
> predominant
> > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to
> honor
> > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.
> (Iris
> > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)
> > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives.
> If
> > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown
> into
> > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their
> fullest
> > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)
> > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we
> ensure
> > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that
> disadvantaged/oppressed
> > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living
> downstream
> > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living
> upstream.
> > >> (Iris Marion Young)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:22:26 -0800
> From: Harshal Deshmukh <harshal05 at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=harshal05@gmail.com>
> >
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> intersect" <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinvxA0ZxES=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
>
> I might not have read a lot of books on social changes or even permaculture
> and i might even be wrong about a few things here.
> Reading Rachel's post about a post oil world where everything now suddenly
> becomes local, isnt that how things were before we discovered cheap energy?
> wont be go back to living in small tribal societies and depend on the local
> environment to help sustain us? there will be a period of chaos and
> upheaval
> when we can no longer sustain ourselves with an oil based economy. but
> after
> that i do think the survivors will learn to live sustainably atleast until
> the next cheap source of energy is discovered. So maybe Rachel's view point
> (and i may be wrong in my understanding) is how do we avoid that period of
> unrest where mostly poor and uneducated people and those who don't have
> access to resources and how to we prepare them for this change. how do we
> prepare ourselves for this change that will if not in our life times, but
> will surely happen, where we have depleted our natural resources to such an
> extend that we cannot sustain our way of living. do can we realistically
> hope that permaculture or any other method allow us to consume as we do now
> and still leave this planet a better place.
> maybe permaculture is about growing food and sustainability.. but i think
> it
> is about a change of mindset too. it think it is about earth care, people
> care and fair share and any thing that promotes this.. be it yoga classes
> or
> teaching people to build soil.. if its advancing those 3 principals then it
> is permaculture in my mind.
> i have started rambling here and should stop.. but it is fun to read these
> discussions.
>
> Harshal
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >wrote:
>
> > Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it
> > permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear
> as i
> > could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we
> > call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would
> like
> > to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone
> if
> > we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way.
> Or
> > to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the
> > ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It
> is
> > not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under
> the
> > umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture
> and
> > seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really
> > ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to
> > backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all
> > the interlinked issue
> > s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just
> > in a different context...
> >
> > Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these
> > concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil.
> The
> > oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the
> > country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except
> > Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing
> thanks
> > to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to
> > prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because
> > transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long
> distance.
> > The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody
> had
> > thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
> > areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how
> we
> > want the future to look like?
> >
> > Rachel
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not
> > permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the
> movement.
> > I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill
> first
> > taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques
> for
> > achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.
> > Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook.
> > He also left the door open to include other things as long as they
> didn't
> > contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the
> > principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since
> > ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything
> > could technically be included in what we call permaculture.
> > >
> > > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic
> > permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms
> for
> > bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely
> > mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul
> Stamets
> > and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for
> > rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been
> damaged
> > by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we
> > should talk about this and develop this promising field within the
> umbrella
> > of permaculture?
> > >
> > > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas
> > about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and
> > reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals
> and
> > microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is
> what
> > nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part
> of
> > a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in
> > permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be
> > considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture
> does
> > include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it
> is
> > just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find
> anything
> > like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That
> > depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to
> > answer questions like this for themselves.
> > >
> > > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that
> > practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to
> > achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we
> should
> > offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call
> it
> > permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow
> as
> > people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but
> > should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own
> > personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is
> relevant
> > for an open discussion like this one.
> > >
> > > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific
> > social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be
> > corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we
> all
> > believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing
> > permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as
> permaculture
> > is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also
> one
> > that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission
> to
> > fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply
> > practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable
> together?
> > We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more
> > effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working
> > within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to
> > create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought
> I'd
> > try to give the discussion context.
> > >
> > > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.
> > >
> > > ~Larry
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <
> jasonamcdaniel at mac.com <http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have
> many
> > beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on
> > permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social
> justice
> > movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from
> the
> > hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.
> > >
> > > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that
> > "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines
> > justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of
> > political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking
> on
> > my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as
> > Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
> > > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800
> > > > From: Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com>
> >
> > > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> > > > intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@
> > lists.beforebefore.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing
> > > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will
> > wither.
> > > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these
> > > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what
> > others
> > > > think about this.
> > > >
> > > > ~Larry
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <
> rachel at rabe.org <http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me.
> We
> > need
> > > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of
> living.
> > We
> > > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about
> > > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we
> > live,
> > > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,
> > though, i
> > > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food.
> Other
> > > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.
> > And that
> > > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud
> if
> > we
> > > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own
> > food?
> > > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just
> > > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of
> > actively
> > > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within
> the
> > > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our
> > neighborhoods are
> > > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not
> > everybody
> > > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they
> have
> > to
> > > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am
> > troubled
> > > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways,
> p.
> > > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary
> > culture"
> > > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female
> > dichotomy does
> > > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.
> > > >>
> > > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To
> me,
> > a
> > > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is
> > supported by
> > > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if
> > we
> > > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more
> > formal
> > > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow
> > reflect
> > > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)
> > > >>
> > > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:
> > > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of
> > > >> justice?
> > > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> > > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is
> > distributed
> > > >> unjustly?
> > > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?
> > > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove
> > obstacles
> > > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?
> > > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?
> > Are
> > > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we
> > overcome
> > > >> those obstacles?
> > > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how
> > > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?
> > > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this?
> Maybe
> > it
> > > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had
> huge
> > > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing
> > everything
> > > >> else will follow?
> > > >>
> > > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.
> > Also,
> > > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do
> > incorporate
> > > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they
> do
> > this?
> > > >>
> > > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!
> > > >>
> > > >> Rachel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:
> > > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just
> > > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still
> > > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go
> beyond
> > the
> > > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define
> justice
> > much
> > > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked
> > at the
> > > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice
> more
> > > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and
> > > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits
> social
> > > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader
> > definition.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental
> issues
> > > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):
> > > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of
> > environmental
> > > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)
> > > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native
> Americans
> > > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the
> > predominant
> > > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to
> > honor
> > > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.
> > (Iris
> > > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)
> > > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling
> lives.
> > If
> > > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is
> thrown
> > into
> > > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their
> > fullest
> > > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)
> > > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we
> > ensure
> > > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that
> > disadvantaged/oppressed
> > > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living
> > downstream
> > > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living
> > upstream.
> > > >> (Iris Marion Young)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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