[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 11
Chris G
galanis_chris at yahoo.ca
Fri Jan 21 16:33:09 PST 2011
Thanks Rachel & Harshall for expanding on your thoughts/ideas. I think there's a hundred interesting threads that could come out of this, and i'll try to specifically respond to what's been said.
I experience the same heartache when i witness the suffering taking place every day everywhere in the world because of inequality and unbalanced distribution. Many people I know feel the same heartache. Many people in the world are oblivious to it and, like Harshall experienced, it's not their concern, and they're busy trying to keep up and make sure they don't get trampled in the race. There's also a small group of people who wield the most power in this structure. They benefit greatly from it and will do everything in their power to keep the machine running smoothly. They likely believe the world is a very just place and that people who get lost in the shuffle do so because of an inherent fault in their individual character. Unfortunately, this small group of people have the most leverage in writing the laws of their respective nations. They also control the military/police forces who uphold these laws, and will use incredible amounts of violence to
sustain their positions. This is simply my own opinion, and for me this is the root of unfair distribution of the things people need to survive. I don't think most people are bad, and I don't think most people would choose to have others suffers. I think it's easier on one's psyche to keep your head down and ignore these realities.
In response to Rachel's initial question, I'm not convinced that permaculture can/will ultimately upend this structure and re-distribute resources fairly. I feel that this experiment of civilization will ultimately have to run it's course, and what that collapse will look like is anyone's guess. It could be gradual and mild, it could be quick and devastating. I really don't know. What I think many of us are doing thru these various investigations/re-imaginings, is what evolution has always done on this planet, and that is to create an abundance of new strategies/adaptations to deal with a changing ecosystem which can no longer support the status quo. In this light, I think permaculture and all the other thousands of experiments/movements are completely valid and in fact quite beautiful and uplifting. Which of them succeed and go on to provide the structures/strategies in the future is anyone's guess. For me, it's work that is both terribly exhilarating
and crushingly heartbreaking.
- cg
--- On Fri, 1/21/11, chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Harshal Deshmukh)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:39:26 -0800
From: Harshal Deshmukh <harshal05 at gmail.com>
To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=D-n31uo=ebkxBavSsfaqkQyP6kix+x1t5P=Z2 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Thank you Rachel,
well i know what you mean by that example about the homeless in the
financial district. I'm originally from Bombay, India and go back every year
to visit. In the 12 years that i have been away I have seen inequalities in
that city and else where in India grown to such levels that i find it
amazing that there hasn't been a revolution so far. Yes India has done well,
but maybe for about 10 % of the population. there were still 20000 farmer
suicides last year and what some people spend on a cup of coffee at a fancy
coffee shop in Bombay, most people in bombay earn that much in a day maybe
even less.
we all know these inequalities so i wont get into more examples. When i ask
my friends back in India that do they ever stop to think about it, they look
at me like i have come from another planet. some have laughed at me on my
face and some behind my back, but so far most (not all) of the people there
are in a rush to get ahead and not worry about the person left behind. it's
almost a case of "too bad, you dont have these opportunities, so you don't
get to share in the resources we are consuming".
i think inherently people aren't bad, but only after they are sure that they
have basic food shelter and clothing and that's when they can look around
and see if someone else needs help. but maybe the reason why people want
more than their fair share is that we live in a world where in an instant
everything you have can be taken from you..(be it medical problems or
natural disasters or something totally randon) and that fear of losing
everything makes us want to horde (for lack of a better word) more than our
fair share.
I dont know if permaculture can solve this social inequality or maybe it can
if we can show working permaculture models which are based on fair share. i
had a lot of questions like these when i took the permaculture course and i
still struggle to find answers. sometimes i think i'm lazy to do whats right
and think that unless everyone changes, why should i, and will it make a
difference, somedays are better and i feel good about what i'm doing to live
according to permaculture principals.
maybe Gandhi said it best "be the change you want to see in the world"
Harshal
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>wrote:
> Thanks for your follow-up and clarification, Harshal! It helps me
> understand where i need to clarify where i am coming from! The challenge of
> email is that we cannot clarify what we typed when someone looks puzzled
> ;-).
>
> And i agree that this is a great discussion even if it meandered off my
> intended path to other important questions/issues/ideas... I hope it will
> continue (in any direction, really, though i'd love input on the question
> i've raised because i am pondering them...)!
>
> I fear that it is indeed to simplistic to assume that injustices will
> simply wither away when we move to a permaculture. I think we need to
> actively ensure that they disappear. Maybe it will help if we focus on one
> of the questions i raised...
>
> I asked: How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is distributed
> unjustly?
>
> What exactly did i mean? Well, go to the Financial District in San
> Francisco, for example. What do you see? You see people in rags who are
> homeless. And then you see people paying $20 or more dollars per day just
> to park their SUV close to the office. That's unequal distribution. Can we
> use permaculture principles to change this? Obviously, it violates "fair
> share." But is that enough? If you've taken a Muni bus lately, you've
> probably heard their appeals to fair share. As if someone who didn't pay
> will all the sudden pay because they realize they haven't contributed their
> fair share? That's my fear: An appeal to "fair share" isn't enough. People
> aren't just going to give up their SUVs so that someone else can simply
> live. So, what more can permaculture offer here?
>
> Rachel
>
>
> On Jan 21, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Harshal Deshmukh wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I guess i must have misunderstood what you have been trying to get this
> discussion focused on, but i'm having a hard time understanding what you are
> getting at when you say we replicate injustices from our existing society to
> the world of permaculture. I assumed that if we kept the principals of
> permaculture in mind and follow those we would not have these
> issues/injustices? or is that too simplistic point of view? i'm not sure...
>
> as for as my statement about small tribal societies.. yes i understand that
> human beings had far more varied and complex cultures than just tribal
> villages, but they all collapsed or died out when they used up more
> resources than they could regenerate.
> my point was that somehow the surviving members will be forced to adapt to
> what is left behind after we have degraded the landbase. maybe not in the
> numbers we have now.
> but this isnt what Rachel wanted to discuss in the first place i think and
> i totally misunderstood her comments. so sorry about that :)
>
> thank you for this platform for this great discussion
>
> Harshal
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>wrote:
>
>> I am frustrated since i seem to be unable to steer the direction in the
>> way i would like it to go: To discuss the potential danger of replicating
>> injustices, copying them from our existing society/culture to a world of
>> permaculture. I was trying to get that point across by painting a picture
>> of an extreme future scenario that caricatured this for illustration. This
>> isn't what i think the future will look like. It's what i fear the future
>> might look like if we aren't careful. Could someone let me know how they
>> understand what i just wrote? I want to make sure that i articulate what i
>> want to discuss...
>>
>> (And to clarify: I wasn't suggesting that all middle class folks are
>> white but rather that i've noticed that most permaculture people are white
>> and middle class and that that might be a problem...)
>>
>> Rachel
>>
>> On Jan 21, 2011, at 12:05 PM, Chris G wrote:
>>
>> Hi all - one thing i find fascinating in these discussions is how we
>> construct both past and future utopias based on *extremely* subjective
>> variables. perhaps it's the difficulty in imagining anything outside of a
>> context for which we have experience.which leads me to contemplate exactly
>> what the "goal" of much of our work is. taking even just Rachel and
>> Harshal's messages as examples (both of which resonate with me and i don't
>> mean any disrespect in analyzing them) of assumptions:
>>
>> - all middle class are white
>> having spent most of my life in the cities of montreal and toronto, two
>> extremely multicultural cities, the ethnic profile of the middle class has
>> changed tremendously from the 1960's to today. demographically, that shift
>> will only increase over time. at least in urban areas, i imagine the
>> generalizing of middle-class as "white" is a projection that will likely be
>> less and less accurate in our lifetimes.
>>
>> - white middle class are the only people with access to backyards
>> again, i see the opposite trend, where people of my generation, no matter
>> the ethnic background, are buying up gaggles of condos on the periphery of
>> inner cities - none of these have backyards. in fact the areas i see that do
>> have gardens in cities i'm familiar with are the older run down
>> neighbourhoods where there is often a large population of recent immigrants.
>> i'm not even going to take new cookie-cutter subdivisions into account
>> because it's my assumption that anyone who wants to live in a suburb is
>> probably not trying to save the planet thru permaculture. rather, i see networks
>> like this <http://www.landshare.net/letsgrow> are probably a better
>> reflection of people's interest in issues of permaculture and social
>> justice.
>>
>> - when civilization collapses small groups of urban elite will be able to
>> sustain their urban gardens peacefully
>> this just makes me start to imagine all kinds of horrible scenarios (ie.
>> Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"). If anything in history has been proven, it's
>> that in the wake of civil collapse, things get brutal, nasty, and life
>> becomes survival through the threat and act of physical violence. It's also
>> pretty safe to assume that the uncontrolled fires, pollution from destroyed
>> industry, and lack of clean water and waste removal will make any kind of
>> urban farming impossible.
>>
>> - before the industrial era, everyone lived in small tribal societies who
>> produced a minimal impact on the landbases they relied on
>> i can't even begin to go into why this is a historical perspective which
>> bears no resemblance to reality. past human cultures have been as varied and
>> complex as one could ever imagine.
>>
>> - when civilization collapses, we can go back to living like these small
>> tribal societies once did
>> i'm afraid that we will have polluted our landbases and altered climate to
>> such an extent that it would be impossible to support anything close to
>> present day population numbers on the untainted resources which still exis
>> t, no matter what structures we put in place.
>>
>> sorry, that all sounds pretty nihilistic - and - i'm curious what
>> motivates us (me?) to do this work, and what, really, is the expectation
>> and/or outcome that we're working towards?
>>
>> thanks y'all, and thank-you for caring enough to explore these issues.
>>
>> - chris galanis
>>
>>
>> --- On *Fri, 1/21/11,
>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:28 -0800
>> From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org>
>>
>> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
>> intersect" <
>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
>> Message-ID: <7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3 at rabe.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>
>> Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it
>> permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i
>> could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we
>> call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like
>> to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if
>> we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or
>> to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the
>> ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is
>> not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the
>> umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and
>> seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really
>> ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to
>> backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all
>> the interlinked issue
>> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just
>> in a different context...
>>
>> Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these
>> concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The
>> oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the
>> country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except
>> Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks
>> to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to
>> prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because
>> transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance.
>> The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had
>> thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
>> areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we
>> want the future to look like?
>>
>> Rachel
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>
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