Hi all, <br><br>I might not have read a lot of books on social changes or even permaculture and i might even be wrong about a few things here.<br>Reading Rachel's post about a post oil world where everything now suddenly becomes local, isnt that how things were before we discovered cheap energy? wont be go back to living in small tribal societies and depend on the local environment to help sustain us? there will be a period of chaos and upheaval when we can no longer sustain ourselves with an oil based economy. but after that i do think the survivors will learn to live sustainably atleast until the next cheap source of energy is discovered. So maybe Rachel's view point (and i may be wrong in my understanding) is how do we avoid that period of unrest where mostly poor and uneducated people and those who don't have access to resources and how to we prepare them for this change. how do we prepare ourselves for this change that will if not in our life times, but will surely happen, where we have depleted our natural resources to such an extend that we cannot sustain our way of living. do can we realistically hope that permaculture or any other method allow us to consume as we do now and still leave this planet a better place.<br>
maybe permaculture is about growing food and sustainability.. but i think it is about a change of mindset too. it think it is about earth care, people care and fair share and any thing that promotes this.. be it yoga classes or teaching people to build soil.. if its advancing those 3 principals then it is permaculture in my mind.<br>
i have started rambling here and should stop.. but it is fun to read these discussions.<br><br>Harshal<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all the interlinked issue<br>
<div class="im"> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just in a different context...<br>
<br>
</div>Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance. The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we want the future to look like?<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Rachel<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement. I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture. Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook. He also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything could technically be included in what we call permaculture.<br>
><br>
> That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella of permaculture?<br>
><br>
> Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to answer questions like this for themselves.<br>
><br>
> Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant for an open discussion like this one.<br>
><br>
> So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission to fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together? We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd try to give the discussion context.<br>
><br>
> Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.<br>
><br>
> ~Larry<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <<a href="mailto:jasonamcdaniel@mac.com">jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.<br>
><br>
> I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.<br>
><br>
> Jason<br>
><br>
> On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM, <a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> wrote:<br>
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> > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)<br>
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> ><br>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> ><br>
> > Message: 1<br>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800<br>
> > From: Larry Korn <<a href="mailto:ldkorn@gmail.com">ldkorn@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>
> > intersect" <<a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a>@<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>
> > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>
> > Message-ID:<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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> ><br>
> > Hello all,<br>
> ><br>
> > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing<br>
> > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will wither.<br>
> > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these<br>
> > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what others<br>
> > think about this.<br>
> ><br>
> > ~Larry<br>
> ><br>
> > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a>>wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We need<br>
> >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of living. We<br>
> >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about<br>
> >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we live,<br>
> >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more, though, i<br>
> >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other<br>
> >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined. And that<br>
> >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if we<br>
> >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own food?<br>
> >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just<br>
> >> society? How can we ensure that it does?<br>
> >><br>
> >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of actively<br>
> >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the<br>
> >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our neighborhoods are<br>
> >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not everybody<br>
> >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have to<br>
> >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am troubled<br>
> >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.<br>
> >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary culture"<br>
> >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female dichotomy does<br>
> >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me, a<br>
> >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is supported by<br>
> >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if we<br>
> >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more formal<br>
> >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow reflect<br>
> >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)<br>
> >><br>
> >> So, the questions i am asking us are:<br>
> >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of<br>
> >> justice?<br>
> >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just<br>
> >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is distributed<br>
> >> unjustly?<br>
> >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?<br>
> >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove obstacles<br>
> >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?<br>
> >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate? Are<br>
> >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we overcome<br>
> >> those obstacles?<br>
> >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how<br>
> >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?<br>
> >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe it<br>
> >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge<br>
> >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing everything<br>
> >> else will follow?<br>
> >><br>
> >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions. Also,<br>
> >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do incorporate<br>
> >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do this?<br>
> >><br>
> >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!<br>
> >><br>
> >> Rachel<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:<br>
> >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just<br>
> >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still<br>
> >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond the<br>
> >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice much<br>
> >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked at the<br>
> >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more<br>
> >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and<br>
> >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social<br>
> >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader definition.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues<br>
> >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):<br>
> >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of environmental<br>
> >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)<br>
> >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans<br>
> >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the predominant<br>
> >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to honor<br>
> >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights. (Iris<br>
> >> Young; Nancy Fraser)<br>
> >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives. If<br>
> >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown into<br>
> >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their fullest<br>
> >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)<br>
> >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we ensure<br>
> >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that disadvantaged/oppressed<br>
> >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living downstream<br>
> >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living upstream.<br>
> >> (Iris Marion Young)<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
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