[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 15
Chris G
galanis_chris at yahoo.ca
Fri Jan 21 18:15:54 PST 2011
nice, i hadn't come across this title yet, but i loved "Wanderlust" - thanks Antonio!
also if anyone's interested, I just started into Deep Green Religion: Nature Spirituality and the Planetary Future by Bron Taylor for a class, and it connects many threads I have been interested in, including the moralistic/spiritual side of the current environmental movement.
- cg
--- On Fri, 1/21/11, chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net> wrote:
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Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 15
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1. Re: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
(Antonio Roman-Alcala)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:40:16 -0800
From: Antonio Roman-Alcala <antidogmatist at gmail.com>
To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
Message-ID:
<AANLkTikYawUZqXVvNhLq_39A20ZT1bEyEpZdsi7Basbo at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
one counter view to the notion that all collapse/crisis situations lead to a
degeneration of humane action, specifically a degeneration originating in
horrors perpetuated by the "common person", is that of Rebecca Solnit in her
most recent book "A Paradise Built in Hell".
i would definitely recommend it.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Chris G <galanis_chris at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hi all - one thing i find fascinating in these discussions is how we
> construct both past and future utopias based on *extremely* subjective
> variables. perhaps it's the difficulty in imagining anything outside of a
> context for which we have experience.which leads me to contemplate exactly
> what the "goal" of much of our work is. taking even just Rachel and
> Harshal's messages as examples (both of which resonate with me and i don't
> mean any disrespect in analyzing them) of assumptions:
>
> - all middle class are white
> having spent most of my life in the cities of montreal and toronto, two
> extremely multicultural cities, the ethnic profile of the middle class has
> changed tremendously from the 1960's to today. demographically, that shift
> will only increase over time. at least in urban areas, i imagine the
> generalizing of middle-class as "white" is a projection that will likely be
> less and less accurate in our lifetimes.
>
> - white middle class are the only people with access to backyards
> again, i see the opposite trend, where people of my generation, no matter
> the ethnic background, are buying up gaggles of condos on the periphery of
> inner cities - none of these have backyards. in fact the areas i see that do
> have gardens in cities i'm familiar with are the older run down
> neighbourhoods where there is often a large population of recent immigrants.
> i'm not even going to take new cookie-cutter subdivisions into account
> because it's my assumption that anyone who wants to live in a suburb is
> probably not trying to save the planet thru permaculture. rather, i see networks
> like this <http://www.landshare.net/letsgrow> are probably a better
> reflection of people's interest in issues of permaculture and social
> justice.
>
> - when civilization collapses small groups of urban elite will be able to
> sustain their urban gardens peacefully
> this just makes me start to imagine all kinds of horrible scenarios (ie.
> Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"). If anything in history has been proven, it's
> that in the wake of civil collapse, things get brutal, nasty, and life
> becomes survival through the threat and act of physical violence. It's also
> pretty safe to assume that the uncontrolled fires, pollution from destroyed
> industry, and lack of clean water and waste removal will make any kind of
> urban farming impossible.
>
> - before the industrial era, everyone lived in small tribal societies who
> produced a minimal impact on the landbases they relied on
> i can't even begin to go into why this is a historical perspective which
> bears no resemblance to reality. past human cultures have been as varied and
> complex as one could ever imagine.
>
> - when civilization collapses, we can go back to living like these small
> tribal societies once did
> i'm afraid that we will have polluted our landbases and altered climate to
> such an extent that it would be impossible to support anything close to
> present day population numbers on the untainted resources which still exis
> t, no matter what structures we put in place.
>
> sorry, that all sounds pretty nihilistic - and - i'm curious what motivates
> us (me?) to do this work, and what, really, is the expectation and/or
> outcome that we're working towards?
>
> thanks y'all, and thank-you for caring enough to explore these issues.
>
> - chris galanis
>
>
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> From: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
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> Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)
> 2. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Harshal Deshmukh)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:28 -0800
> From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> intersect" <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> Message-ID: <7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3 at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it
> permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i
> could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we
> call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like
> to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if
> we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or
> to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the
> ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is
> not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the
> umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and
> seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really
> ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to
> backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all
> the interlinked issue
> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just in
> a different context...
>
> Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these
> concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The
> oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the
> country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except
> Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks
> to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to
> prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because
> transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance.
> The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had
> thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
> areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we
> want the future to look like?
>
> Rachel
>
> On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
>
> > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not
> permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement.
> I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first
> taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for
> achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.
> Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook. He
> also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't
> contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the
> principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since
> ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything
> could technically be included in what we call permaculture.
> >
> > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic
> permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for
> bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely
> mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets
> and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for
> rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged
> by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we
> should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella
> of permaculture?
> >
> > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas
> about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and
> reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and
> microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what
> nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of
> a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in
> permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be
> considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does
> include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is
> just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything
> like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That
> depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to
> answer questions like this for themselves.
> >
> > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that
> practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to
> achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should
> offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it
> permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as
> people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but
> should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own
> personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant
> for an open discussion like this one.
> >
> > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific
> social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be
> corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all
> believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing
> permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture
> is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one
> that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission to
> fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply
> practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together?
> We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more
> effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working
> within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to
> create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd
> try to give the discussion context.
> >
> > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.
> >
> > ~Larry
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <jasonamcdaniel at mac.com<http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com>>
> wrote:
> > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many
> beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on
> permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice
> movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the
> hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.
> >
> > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that
> "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines
> justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of
> political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on
> my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as
> Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net>wrote:
> >
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> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800
> > > From: Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com>
> >
> > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> > > intersect" <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing
> > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will
> wither.
> > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these
> > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what
> others
> > > think about this.
> > >
> > > ~Larry
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >wrote:
> > >
> > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We
> need
> > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of
> living. We
> > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about
> > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we
> live,
> > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,
> though, i
> > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other
> > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.
> And that
> > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if
> we
> > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own
> food?
> > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just
> > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?
> > >>
> > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of
> actively
> > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the
> > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our
> neighborhoods are
> > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not
> everybody
> > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have
> to
> > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am
> troubled
> > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.
> > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary
> culture"
> > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female
> dichotomy does
> > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.
> > >>
> > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me,
> a
> > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is
> supported by
> > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if
> we
> > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more
> formal
> > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow
> reflect
> > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)
> > >>
> > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:
> > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of
> > >> justice?
> > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is
> distributed
> > >> unjustly?
> > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?
> > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove
> obstacles
> > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?
> > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?
> Are
> > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we
> overcome
> > >> those obstacles?
> > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how
> > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?
> > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe
> it
> > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge
> > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing
> everything
> > >> else will follow?
> > >>
> > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.
> Also,
> > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do
> incorporate
> > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do
> this?
> > >>
> > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!
> > >>
> > >> Rachel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:
> > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just
> > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still
> > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond
> the
> > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice
> much
> > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked
> at the
> > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more
> > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and
> > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social
> > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader
> definition.
> > >>
> > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues
> > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):
> > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of
> environmental
> > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)
> > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans
> > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the
> predominant
> > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to
> honor
> > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.
> (Iris
> > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)
> > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives.
> If
> > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown
> into
> > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their
> fullest
> > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)
> > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we
> ensure
> > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that
> disadvantaged/oppressed
> > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living
> downstream
> > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living
> upstream.
> > >> (Iris Marion Young)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:22:26 -0800
> From: Harshal Deshmukh <harshal05 at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=harshal05@gmail.com>
> >
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> intersect" <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinvxA0ZxES=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
>
> I might not have read a lot of books on social changes or even permaculture
> and i might even be wrong about a few things here.
> Reading Rachel's post about a post oil world where everything now suddenly
> becomes local, isnt that how things were before we discovered cheap energy?
> wont be go back to living in small tribal societies and depend on the local
> environment to help sustain us? there will be a period of chaos and
> upheaval
> when we can no longer sustain ourselves with an oil based economy. but
> after
> that i do think the survivors will learn to live sustainably atleast until
> the next cheap source of energy is discovered. So maybe Rachel's view point
> (and i may be wrong in my understanding) is how do we avoid that period of
> unrest where mostly poor and uneducated people and those who don't have
> access to resources and how to we prepare them for this change. how do we
> prepare ourselves for this change that will if not in our life times, but
> will surely happen, where we have depleted our natural resources to such an
> extend that we cannot sustain our way of living. do can we realistically
> hope that permaculture or any other method allow us to consume as we do now
> and still leave this planet a better place.
> maybe permaculture is about growing food and sustainability.. but i think
> it
> is about a change of mindset too. it think it is about earth care, people
> care and fair share and any thing that promotes this.. be it yoga classes
> or
> teaching people to build soil.. if its advancing those 3 principals then it
> is permaculture in my mind.
> i have started rambling here and should stop.. but it is fun to read these
> discussions.
>
> Harshal
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >wrote:
>
> > Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it
> > permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear
> as i
> > could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we
> > call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would
> like
> > to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone
> if
> > we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way.
> Or
> > to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the
> > ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It
> is
> > not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under
> the
> > umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture
> and
> > seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really
> > ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to
> > backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all
> > the interlinked issue
> > s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just
> > in a different context...
> >
> > Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these
> > concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil.
> The
> > oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the
> > country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except
> > Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing
> thanks
> > to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to
> > prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because
> > transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long
> distance.
> > The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody
> had
> > thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
> > areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how
> we
> > want the future to look like?
> >
> > Rachel
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not
> > permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the
> movement.
> > I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill
> first
> > taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques
> for
> > achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.
> > Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook.
> > He also left the door open to include other things as long as they
> didn't
> > contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the
> > principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since
> > ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything
> > could technically be included in what we call permaculture.
> > >
> > > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic
> > permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms
> for
> > bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely
> > mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul
> Stamets
> > and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for
> > rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been
> damaged
> > by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we
> > should talk about this and develop this promising field within the
> umbrella
> > of permaculture?
> > >
> > > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas
> > about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and
> > reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals
> and
> > microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is
> what
> > nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part
> of
> > a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in
> > permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be
> > considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture
> does
> > include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it
> is
> > just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find
> anything
> > like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That
> > depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to
> > answer questions like this for themselves.
> > >
> > > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that
> > practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to
> > achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we
> should
> > offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call
> it
> > permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow
> as
> > people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but
> > should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own
> > personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is
> relevant
> > for an open discussion like this one.
> > >
> > > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific
> > social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be
> > corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we
> all
> > believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing
> > permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as
> permaculture
> > is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also
> one
> > that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission
> to
> > fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply
> > practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable
> together?
> > We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more
> > effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working
> > within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to
> > create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought
> I'd
> > try to give the discussion context.
> > >
> > > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.
> > >
> > > ~Larry
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <
> jasonamcdaniel at mac.com <http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have
> many
> > beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on
> > permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social
> justice
> > movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from
> the
> > hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.
> > >
> > > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that
> > "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines
> > justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of
> > political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking
> on
> > my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as
> > Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
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> > > >
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> > > >
> >
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> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800
> > > > From: Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com>
> >
> > > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> > > > intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@
> > lists.beforebefore.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing
> > > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will
> > wither.
> > > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these
> > > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what
> > others
> > > > think about this.
> > > >
> > > > ~Larry
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <
> rachel at rabe.org <http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me.
> We
> > need
> > > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of
> living.
> > We
> > > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about
> > > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we
> > live,
> > > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,
> > though, i
> > > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food.
> Other
> > > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.
> > And that
> > > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud
> if
> > we
> > > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own
> > food?
> > > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just
> > > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of
> > actively
> > > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within
> the
> > > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our
> > neighborhoods are
> > > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not
> > everybody
> > > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they
> have
> > to
> > > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am
> > troubled
> > > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways,
> p.
> > > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary
> > culture"
> > > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female
> > dichotomy does
> > > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.
> > > >>
> > > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To
> me,
> > a
> > > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is
> > supported by
> > > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if
> > we
> > > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more
> > formal
> > > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow
> > reflect
> > > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)
> > > >>
> > > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:
> > > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of
> > > >> justice?
> > > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> > > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is
> > distributed
> > > >> unjustly?
> > > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?
> > > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove
> > obstacles
> > > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?
> > > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?
> > Are
> > > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we
> > overcome
> > > >> those obstacles?
> > > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how
> > > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?
> > > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this?
> Maybe
> > it
> > > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had
> huge
> > > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing
> > everything
> > > >> else will follow?
> > > >>
> > > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.
> > Also,
> > > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do
> > incorporate
> > > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they
> do
> > this?
> > > >>
> > > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!
> > > >>
> > > >> Rachel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:
> > > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just
> > > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still
> > > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go
> beyond
> > the
> > > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define
> justice
> > much
> > > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked
> > at the
> > > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice
> more
> > > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and
> > > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits
> social
> > > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader
> > definition.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental
> issues
> > > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):
> > > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of
> > environmental
> > > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)
> > > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native
> Americans
> > > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the
> > predominant
> > > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to
> > honor
> > > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.
> > (Iris
> > > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)
> > > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling
> lives.
> > If
> > > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is
> thrown
> > into
> > > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their
> > fullest
> > > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)
> > > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we
> > ensure
> > > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that
> > disadvantaged/oppressed
> > > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living
> > downstream
> > > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living
> > upstream.
> > > >> (Iris Marion Young)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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