<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">nice, i hadn't come across this title yet, but i loved "Wanderlust" - thanks Antonio!<br><br>also if anyone's interested, I just started into <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Green-Religion-Spirituality-Planetary/dp/0520261003/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295662312&sr=1-1">Deep Green Religion: Nature Spirituality and the Planetary Future</a> by Bron Taylor for a class, and it connects many threads I have been interested in, including the moralistic/spiritual side of the current environmental movement.<br><br> - cg<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 1/21/11, chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net <i><chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From:
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net><br>Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 15<br>To: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net<br>Received: Friday, January 21, 2011, 8:55 PM<br><br><div class="plainMail">Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to<br> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br><br>or, via email, send a message with
subject or body 'help' to<br> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7<br> (Antonio
Roman-Alcala)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:40:16 -0800<br>From: Antonio Roman-Alcala <<a ymailto="mailto:antidogmatist@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=antidogmatist@gmail.com">antidogmatist@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br> intersect" <<a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net<br> Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7<br>Message-ID:<br> <<a ymailto="mailto:AANLkTikYawUZqXVvNhLq_39A20ZT1bEyEpZdsi7Basbo@mail.gmail.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=AANLkTikYawUZqXVvNhLq_39A20ZT1bEyEpZdsi7Basbo@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTikYawUZqXVvNhLq_39A20ZT1bEyEpZdsi7Basbo@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>one counter view to the notion that all collapse/crisis situations lead to a<br>degeneration of humane action, specifically a degeneration originating in<br>horrors perpetuated by the "common person", is that of Rebecca Solnit in her<br>most recent book "A Paradise Built in Hell".<br><br>i would definitely recommend it.<br><br>On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Chris G <<a ymailto="mailto:galanis_chris@yahoo.ca" href="/mc/compose?to=galanis_chris@yahoo.ca">galanis_chris@yahoo.ca</a>> wrote:<br><br>> Hi all - one thing i find fascinating in these discussions is how we<br>> construct both past and future utopias based on *extremely* subjective<br>> variables. perhaps it's the difficulty in imagining anything outside of a<br>> context
for which we have experience.which leads me to contemplate exactly<br>> what the "goal" of much of our work is. taking even just Rachel and<br>> Harshal's messages as examples (both of which resonate with me and i don't<br>> mean any disrespect in analyzing them) of assumptions:<br>><br>> - all middle class are white<br>> having spent most of my life in the cities of montreal and toronto, two<br>> extremely multicultural cities, the ethnic profile of the middle class has<br>> changed tremendously from the 1960's to today. demographically, that shift<br>> will only increase over time. at least in urban areas, i imagine the<br>> generalizing of middle-class as "white" is a projection that will likely be<br>> less and less accurate in our lifetimes.<br>><br>> - white middle class are the only people with access to backyards<br>> again, i see the opposite trend, where people of my generation, no matter<br>> the
ethnic background, are buying up gaggles of condos on the periphery of<br>> inner cities - none of these have backyards. in fact the areas i see that do<br>> have gardens in cities i'm familiar with are the older run down<br>> neighbourhoods where there is often a large population of recent immigrants.<br>> i'm not even going to take new cookie-cutter subdivisions into account<br>> because it's my assumption that anyone who wants to live in a suburb is<br>> probably not trying to save the planet thru permaculture. rather, i see networks<br>> like this <<a href="http://www.landshare.net/letsgrow" target="_blank">http://www.landshare.net/letsgrow</a>> are probably a better<br>> reflection of people's interest in issues of permaculture and social<br>> justice.<br>><br>> - when civilization collapses small groups of urban elite will be able to<br>> sustain their urban gardens peacefully<br>> this just makes me
start to imagine all kinds of horrible scenarios (ie.<br>> Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"). If anything in history has been proven, it's<br>> that in the wake of civil collapse, things get brutal, nasty, and life<br>> becomes survival through the threat and act of physical violence. It's also<br>> pretty safe to assume that the uncontrolled fires, pollution from destroyed<br>> industry, and lack of clean water and waste removal will make any kind of<br>> urban farming impossible.<br>><br>> - before the industrial era, everyone lived in small tribal societies who<br>> produced a minimal impact on the landbases they relied on<br>> i can't even begin to go into why this is a historical perspective which<br>> bears no resemblance to reality. past human cultures have been as varied and<br>> complex as one could ever imagine.<br>><br>> - when civilization collapses, we can go back to living like these small<br>>
tribal societies once did<br>> i'm afraid that we will have polluted our landbases and altered climate to<br>> such an extent that it would be impossible to support anything close to<br>> present day population numbers on the untainted resources which still exis<br>> t, no matter what structures we put in place.<br>><br>> sorry, that all sounds pretty nihilistic - and - i'm curious what motivates<br>> us (me?) to do this work, and what, really, is the expectation and/or<br>> outcome that we're working towards?<br>><br>> thanks y'all, and thank-you for caring enough to explore these issues.<br>><br>> - chris galanis<br>><br>><br>> --- On *Fri, 1/21/11,<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net"
href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>>* wrote:<br>><br>><br>> From: <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> Subject:
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7<br>> To: <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> Received: Friday, January 21, 2011, 2:37 PM<br>><br>> Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>><br>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>><br>> <a
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href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>><br>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."<br>><br>><br>> Today's Topics:<br>><br>> 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)<br>> 2. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Harshal Deshmukh)<br>><br>><br>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:28 -0800<br>> From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <<a ymailto="mailto:rachel@rabe.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org</a>><br>> ><br>> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>> intersect" <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> ><br>> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>> Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org">7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org</a>><br>> ><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>><br>> Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it<br>> permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i<br>> could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we<br>> call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like<br>> to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if<br>> we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or<br>> to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within
the<br>> ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is<br>> not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the<br>> umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and<br>> seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really<br>> ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to<br>> backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all<br>> the interlinked issue<br>> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just in<br>> a different context...<br>><br>> Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these<br>> concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The<br>> oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the<br>>
country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except<br>> Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks<br>> to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to<br>> prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because<br>> transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance.<br>> The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had<br>> thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in<br>> areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we<br>> want the future to look like?<br>><br>> Rachel<br>><br>> On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:<br>><br>> > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not<br>> permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed
throughout the movement.<br>> I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first<br>> taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for<br>> achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.<br>> Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook. He<br>> also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't<br>> contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the<br>> principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since<br>> ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything<br>> could technically be included in what we call permaculture.<br>> ><br>> > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic<br>> permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for<br>>
bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely<br>> mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets<br>> and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for<br>> rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged<br>> by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we<br>> should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella<br>> of permaculture?<br>> ><br>> > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas<br>> about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and<br>> reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and<br>> microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what<br>> nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part
of<br>> a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in<br>> permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be<br>> considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does<br>> include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is<br>> just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything<br>> like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That<br>> depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to<br>> answer questions like this for themselves.<br>> ><br>> > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that<br>> practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to<br>> achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should<br>> offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology
and crystal healing and call it<br>> permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as<br>> people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but<br>> should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own<br>> personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant<br>> for an open discussion like this one.<br>> ><br>> > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific<br>> social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be<br>> corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all<br>> believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing<br>> permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture<br>> is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one<br>> that addresses
personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission to<br>> fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply<br>> practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together?<br>> We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more<br>> effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working<br>> within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to<br>> create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd<br>> try to give the discussion context.<br>> ><br>> > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.<br>> ><br>> > ~Larry<br>> ><br>> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <<a ymailto="mailto:jasonamcdaniel@mac.com" href="/mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com">jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a><<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a>>><br>> wrote:<br>> > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many<br>> beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on<br>> permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice<br>> movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the<br>> hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.<br>> ><br>> > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that<br>> "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines<br>> justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of<br>> political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on<br>> my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as<br>> Rawls,
Sen, Nussbaum, etc.<br>> ><br>> > Jason<br>> ><br>> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>>wrote:<br>> ><br>> > > Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to<br>> > > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > ><br>> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> > ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> > ><br>> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> > > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net"
target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > ><br>> > > You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> > > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > ><br>> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> > > than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > Today's Topics:<br>> > ><br>> > >
1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > ><br>> > > Message: 1<br>> > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800<br>> > > From: Larry Korn <<a ymailto="mailto:ldkorn@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com">ldkorn@gmail.com</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com</a>><br>> ><br>> > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>> > > intersect" <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a
href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> ><br>> > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>> > > Message-ID:<br>> > > <<a ymailto="mailto:AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>> ><br>> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>> > ><br>> > > Hello all,<br>> > ><br>> > > Thank you, Rachel for this
posting. It's true that by practicing<br>> > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will<br>> wither.<br>> > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these<br>> > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what<br>> others<br>> > > think about this.<br>> > ><br>> > > ~Larry<br>> > ><br>> > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a ymailto="mailto:rachel@rabe.org" href="/mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org</a>><br>> >wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We<br>> need<br>> > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of<br>>
living. We<br>> > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about<br>> > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we<br>> live,<br>> > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,<br>> though, i<br>> > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other<br>> > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.<br>> And that<br>> > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if<br>> we<br>> > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own<br>> food?<br>> > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just<br>> > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?<br>> > >><br>> > >> I am troubled by
the absence, within the permaculture movement, of<br>> actively<br>> > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the<br>> > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our<br>> neighborhoods are<br>> > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not<br>> everybody<br>> > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have<br>> to<br>> > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am<br>> troubled<br>> > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.<br>> > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary<br>> culture"<br>> > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female<br>> dichotomy does<br>> > >> not recognize that men and women
are not as different as many claim.<br>> > >><br>> > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me,<br>> a<br>> > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is<br>> supported by<br>> > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if<br>> we<br>> > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more<br>> formal<br>> > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow<br>> reflect<br>> > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)<br>> > >><br>> > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:<br>> > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of<br>> > >> justice?<br>> > >> ? How can we use
permaculture principles to ensure just<br>> > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is<br>> distributed<br>> > >> unjustly?<br>> > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?<br>> > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove<br>> obstacles<br>> > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?<br>> > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?<br>> Are<br>> > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we<br>> overcome<br>> > >> those obstacles?<br>> > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how<br>> > >> permaculture addresses these
aspects or how it doesn't?<br>> > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe<br>> it<br>> > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge<br>> > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing<br>> everything<br>> > >> else will follow?<br>> > >><br>> > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.<br>> Also,<br>> > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do<br>> incorporate<br>> > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do<br>> this?<br>> > >><br>> > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!<br>> > >><br>> > >> Rachel<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> And if you're really interested in
the academic background, read on:<br>> > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just<br>> > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still<br>> > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond<br>> the<br>> > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice<br>> much<br>> > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked<br>> at the<br>> > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more<br>> > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and<br>> > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social<br>> > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader<br>> definition.<br>> > >><br>> > >> Let
me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues<br>> > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):<br>> > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of<br>> environmental<br>> > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)<br>> > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans<br>> > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the<br>> predominant<br>> > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to<br>> honor<br>> > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.<br>> (Iris<br>> > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)<br>> > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives.<br>> If<br>> > >> the soil
where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown<br>> into<br>> > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their<br>> fullest<br>> > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)<br>> > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we<br>> ensure<br>> > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that<br>> disadvantaged/oppressed<br>> > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living<br>> downstream<br>> > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living<br>> upstream.<br>> > >> (Iris Marion Young)<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> _______________________________________________<br>> > >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list<br>> > >> <a
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href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > End of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 4<br>> > > ***************************************************************<br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list<br>> > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> ><br>> <a
href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > --<br>> > www.onestrawrevolution.net<br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list<br>> > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net"
target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>><br>><br>><br>> ------------------------------<br>><br>> Message: 2<br>> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:22:26 -0800<br>> From: Harshal Deshmukh <<a ymailto="mailto:harshal05@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=harshal05@gmail.com">harshal05@gmail.com</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=harshal05@gmail.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=harshal05@gmail.com</a>><br>> ><br>> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>> intersect" <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net"
target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> ><br>> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>> Message-ID:<br>> <AANLkTinvxA0ZxES=<a ymailto="mailto:Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com">Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>> ><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>><br>> Hi all,<br>><br>> I might not have read a lot of books on social changes or even permaculture<br>> and i might even be wrong about a few things here.<br>> Reading Rachel's post about a post oil world where everything now suddenly<br>> becomes local, isnt that how things
were before we discovered cheap energy?<br>> wont be go back to living in small tribal societies and depend on the local<br>> environment to help sustain us? there will be a period of chaos and<br>> upheaval<br>> when we can no longer sustain ourselves with an oil based economy. but<br>> after<br>> that i do think the survivors will learn to live sustainably atleast until<br>> the next cheap source of energy is discovered. So maybe Rachel's view point<br>> (and i may be wrong in my understanding) is how do we avoid that period of<br>> unrest where mostly poor and uneducated people and those who don't have<br>> access to resources and how to we prepare them for this change. how do we<br>> prepare ourselves for this change that will if not in our life times, but<br>> will surely happen, where we have depleted our natural resources to such an<br>> extend that we cannot sustain our way of living. do can we
realistically<br>> hope that permaculture or any other method allow us to consume as we do now<br>> and still leave this planet a better place.<br>> maybe permaculture is about growing food and sustainability.. but i think<br>> it<br>> is about a change of mindset too. it think it is about earth care, people<br>> care and fair share and any thing that promotes this.. be it yoga classes<br>> or<br>> teaching people to build soil.. if its advancing those 3 principals then it<br>> is permaculture in my mind.<br>> i have started rambling here and should stop.. but it is fun to read these<br>> discussions.<br>><br>> Harshal<br>><br>><br>><br>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a ymailto="mailto:rachel@rabe.org" href="/mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org"
target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org</a>><br>> >wrote:<br>><br>> > Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it<br>> > permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear<br>> as i<br>> > could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we<br>> > call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would<br>> like<br>> > to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone<br>> if<br>> > we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way.<br>> Or<br>> > to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the<br>> > ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It<br>> is<br>> > not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under<br>>
the<br>> > umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture<br>> and<br>> > seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really<br>> > ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to<br>> > backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all<br>> > the interlinked issue<br>> > s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just<br>> > in a different context...<br>> ><br>> > Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these<br>> > concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil.<br>> The<br>> > oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the<br>> > country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except<br>> > Bayview/Hunters Point),
for example, has an abundance of food growing<br>> thanks<br>> > to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to<br>> > prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because<br>> > transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long<br>> distance.<br>> > The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody<br>> had<br>> > thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in<br>> > areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how<br>> we<br>> > want the future to look like?<br>> ><br>> > Rachel<br>> ><br>> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:<br>> ><br>> > > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not<br>> > permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout
the<br>> movement.<br>> > I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill<br>> first<br>> > taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques<br>> for<br>> > achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.<br>> > Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook.<br>> > He also left the door open to include other things as long as they<br>> didn't<br>> > contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the<br>> > principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since<br>> > ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything<br>> > could technically be included in what we call permaculture.<br>> > ><br>> > > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic<br>> >
permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms<br>> for<br>> > bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely<br>> > mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul<br>> Stamets<br>> > and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for<br>> > rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been<br>> damaged<br>> > by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we<br>> > should talk about this and develop this promising field within the<br>> umbrella<br>> > of permaculture?<br>> > ><br>> > > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas<br>> > about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and<br>> > reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants,
animals<br>> and<br>> > microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is<br>> what<br>> > nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part<br>> of<br>> > a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in<br>> > permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be<br>> > considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture<br>> does<br>> > include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it<br>> is<br>> > just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find<br>> anything<br>> > like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That<br>> > depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to<br>> > answer questions like this for themselves.<br>> > ><br>> >
> Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that<br>> > practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to<br>> > achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we<br>> should<br>> > offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call<br>> it<br>> > permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow<br>> as<br>> > people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but<br>> > should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own<br>> > personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is<br>> relevant<br>> > for an open discussion like this one.<br>> > ><br>> > > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific<br>> > social problems in the world and in our communities that
need to be<br>> > corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we<br>> all<br>> > believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing<br>> > permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as<br>> permaculture<br>> > is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also<br>> one<br>> > that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission<br>> to<br>> > fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply<br>> > practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable<br>> together?<br>> > We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more<br>> > effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working<br>> > within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away
to<br>> > create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought<br>> I'd<br>> > try to give the discussion context.<br>> > ><br>> > > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.<br>> > ><br>> > > ~Larry<br>> > ><br>> > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:jasonamcdaniel@mac.com" href="/mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com">jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a> <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a>>><br>> > wrote:<br>> > > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have<br>> many<br>> > beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on<br>> > permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social<br>> justice<br>> > movement.
In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from<br>> the<br>> > hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.<br>> > ><br>> > > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that<br>> > "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines<br>> > justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of<br>> > political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking<br>> on<br>> > my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as<br>> > Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.<br>> > ><br>> > > Jason<br>> > ><br>> > > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,<br>> > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net"
href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>>wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > > > Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to<br>> > > > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > > ><br>> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> > > ><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> > > ><br>> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> > > > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > > ><br>> > > > You can reach the person
managing the list at<br>> > > > <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > > ><br>> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> > > > than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > > Today's Topics:<br>> > > ><br>> > > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Message: 1<br>> > > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800<br>> > > > From: Larry Korn <<a ymailto="mailto:ldkorn@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com">ldkorn@gmail.com</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com</a>><br>> ><br>> > > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>> > > > intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@<br>> > lists.beforebefore.net><br>> > > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>> > > > Message-ID:<br>> > > > <<a ymailto="mailto:AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>> ><br>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Hello all,<br>> > > ><br>> > > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing<br>> > > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will<br>> > wither.<br>> > > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these<br>> > > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what<br>> > others<br>> > > > think about
this.<br>> > > ><br>> > > > ~Larry<br>> > > ><br>> > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:rachel@rabe.org" href="/mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a> <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org</a>><br>> > >wrote:<br>> > > ><br>> > > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me.<br>> We<br>> > need<br>> > > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of<br>> living.<br>> > We<br>> > > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about<br>> > > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we<br>> > live,<br>> > > >> the way we interact, the way we eat,
etc. As i was reading more,<br>> > though, i<br>> > > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food.<br>> Other<br>> > > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.<br>> > And that<br>> > > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud<br>> if<br>> > we<br>> > > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own<br>> > food?<br>> > > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just<br>> > > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of<br>> > actively<br>> > > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within<br>> the<br>> > >
>> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our<br>> > neighborhoods are<br>> > > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not<br>> > everybody<br>> > > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they<br>> have<br>> > to<br>> > > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am<br>> > troubled<br>> > > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways,<br>> p.<br>> > > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary<br>> > culture"<br>> > > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female<br>> > dichotomy does<br>> > > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> Justice,
of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To<br>> me,<br>> > a<br>> > > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is<br>> > supported by<br>> > > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if<br>> > we<br>> > > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more<br>> > formal<br>> > > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow<br>> > reflect<br>> > > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:<br>> > > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of<br>> > > >> justice?<br>> > > >> ? How can we use permaculture
principles to ensure just<br>> > > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is<br>> > distributed<br>> > > >> unjustly?<br>> > > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?<br>> > > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove<br>> > obstacles<br>> > > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?<br>> > > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?<br>> > Are<br>> > > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we<br>> > overcome<br>> > > >> those obstacles?<br>> > > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate
how<br>> > > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?<br>> > > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this?<br>> Maybe<br>> > it<br>> > > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had<br>> huge<br>> > > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing<br>> > everything<br>> > > >> else will follow?<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.<br>> > Also,<br>> > > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do<br>> > incorporate<br>> > > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they<br>> do<br>> > this?<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> Looking forward to a lively
discussion!<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> Rachel<br>> > > >><br>> > > >><br>> > > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:<br>> > > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just<br>> > > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still<br>> > > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go<br>> beyond<br>> > the<br>> > > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define<br>> justice<br>> > much<br>> > > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked<br>> > at the<br>> > > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice<br>> more<br>> > > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition,
capabilities, and<br>> > > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits<br>> social<br>> > > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader<br>> > definition.<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental<br>> issues<br>> > > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):<br>> > > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of<br>> > environmental<br>> > > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)<br>> > > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native<br>> Americans<br>> > > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the<br>> > predominant<br>> > > >> White-European view.
Recognition respects this. We might need to<br>> > honor<br>> > > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.<br>> > (Iris<br>> > > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)<br>> > > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling<br>> lives.<br>> > If<br>> > > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is<br>> thrown<br>> > into<br>> > > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their<br>> > fullest<br>> > > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)<br>> > > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we<br>> > ensure<br>> > > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that<br>> > disadvantaged/oppressed<br>> > > >> groups have
particular rights. For example, the folks living<br>> > downstream<br>> > > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living<br>> > upstream.<br>> > > >> (Iris Marion Young)<br>> > > >><br>> > > >><br>> > > >> _______________________________________________<br>> > > >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list<br>> > > >> <a ymailto="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" href="/mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > > >><br>> > > >><br>> ><br>> <a
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