[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 24

Sam Wolpert swolpert at ucsc.edu
Mon Jan 31 22:38:32 PST 2011 

Jason,
I totally agree with you, and I think your point about permaculture starting at the individual level is dead on. The individual is an important step in the bottom up approach I mentioned, and skipping directly to the collective level is in my opinion extremely dangerous. In fact, people are far less likely to agree with or listen to our views on justice if we do not live them out through our own actions. In order to change any system, we must first change ourselves, and if that change is positive then I believe that eventually people will take notice. Perhaps we won't create a sweeping change on a large scale within our lifetime, but I think that if we can inspire a positive change in even a very small number of people then that is not a failure. Of course, throughout this whole process it's important to keep the goal of positive change in mind and make sure that our practices are constantly adapting and evolving toward that goal.

I also think your point about buildings and spaces being important as well is a good one, and it's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of applying similar ideas of justice to different areas or systems. I think that perhaps the question to ask is do we also call this permaculture, or is it something different that can be traced back to the same or similar roots? I myself am not a permaculture buff so I don't know enough about its exact definition to propose an answer to this question, but hopefully someone else with a bit more expertise in this arena will.

-Sam

> 
> 
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:46:26 -0800
> From: Jason Hiller <jdhiller at gmail.com>
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> 	intersect"	<chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] more on justice & permaculture
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTinOTiRHHNSqn+U6RO4JestU0YApgdatThp-98KC at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hi Sam and thanks for jumping in. I'm sure every will agree your comments
> are totally welcomed and appropriate.
> 
> The top down approach is definitely what I'm referencing. To me, getting my
> permaculture game on means living a new culture. It means doing things that
> are good and abide by the basic principles. I think it is true that one
> could make use of these notions in a myriad of ways but there is a danger of
> assimilating to the systemic problems when we talk about using the ideas or
> the people in them to springboard into something as vast as justice.
> 
> To borrow someone's verbiage from before, I also take polite exception to
> thinking that we are 'redesigning' our culture. I'm not sure that's the
> opportunity we have. I see things more like redesigning ourselves, ie, my
> own culture. Perhaps that comes across wrongly to some but isn't part of
> being able to help or take care of others also knowing how to help and take
> care of yourself?
> 
> I understand why agriculture is perhaps the biggest aspect of permaculture-
> because we all need to eat. There's got to be a best practice for that and
> I'm learning everything I can as I hold tight to the dream that one day I'll
> be more self-reliant when it comes my own food. It may be my bias here as
> someone with an architect's background but I think we also all need places
> to live, work and sleep. So for me buildings and spaces are high up there.
> If you can create abundance in warm, safe places then who wouldn't want to
> be there?
> 
> I apologize if I'm rambling at all, does anyone else agree?
> 
> jh
> 
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Sam Wolpert <swolpert at ucsc.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Hi All,
>> My name is Sam Wolpert and I am one of Margaretha's students at UCSC. A
>> discussion in class prompted her to tell me about Chapter Fourteen, and I
>> have been reading your discussions over the past several weeks. I will admit
>> that I don't know much about permaculture outside of what I have learned
>> from reading your emails, but I've found your discussion really interesting
>> and it has given me some thoughts that I'd like to share. I'm not sure where
>> (if at all) my opinions fit into this discussion, but I hope you can all
>> gain something useful from them, and I would be very interested to hear your
>> feedback.
>> 
>> My main reaction to Rachel's comments about justice and permaculture is
>> this: it seems to me that certain ideas about justice have informed various
>> aspects of permaculture and not necessarily the other way around. That is,
>> permaculture was built on certain ideas of justice, not justice was created
>> by permaculture. I think that perhaps the most useful thing to do is to
>> identify these ideas of justice and how they are manifested through
>> permaculture, and then figure out how we can use those same ideas to rebuild
>> other areas of society from the bottom up. I feel that this is different
>> from the more top-down approach that seems to want to use permaculture to
>> apply justice. Perhaps this is what Jason was trying to get at with his
>> "frameworks on top of frameworks" comment.
>> 
>> While I do think permaculture can be a great example of a system built on
>> the ideas of justice Rachel mentioned, I think it is very important to
>> remember permaculture is simply one implementation of these abstract ideas
>> and does not create them in its own right. In fact, a commitment to these
>> abstract ideas could potentially give way to a number of different systems,
>> some of which might deal with very different areas of our culture. If what
>> Rachel is proposing is an expansion of the term "permaculture" to encompass
>> all of these systems, then I would say that perhaps that is too broad a
>> definition. I think that, in its current form, permaculture can certainly be
>> used as a window to ideas of justice, but is too specific an implementation
>> of them to be necessarily suited to spreading those ideas to all aspects of
>> our culture.
>> 
>> -Sam
>> 
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:14:20 -0800
>>> From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org>
>>> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
>>>      intersect"      <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@
>> lists.beforebefore.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] more on justice & permaculture
>>> Message-ID: <C70DA3CE-990A-4646-801F-DB6DD9CB9DEB at rabe.org>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>> 
>>> So permaculture is really permanent agriculture then?  To me, redesigning
>> our culture seems like an incredible opportunity to "do it right," i.e.,
>> respecting all aspects of justice i mentioned in my original email.  But
>> maybe that is asking for too much?  Making a project too large could
>> endanger it...
>>> 
>>> The working definition of justice that i suggested is at the bottom of my
>> original email.  Justice is fair distribution but also ensuring that the
>> obstacles to such fairness are removed, which requires representation,
>> participation, and ensuring we are able to fulfill our capabilities.
>>> 
>>> On Jan 31, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Jason Hiller wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I had already read it. Didn't note a discussion on defining justice.
>> Also doesn't help clear up what you are trying to moderate exactly.
>>>> 
>>>> If you are asking if permaculture needs to be more proactive as a social
>> justifying force than I would say no it does not. Frameworks on top of
>> frameworks are tough to manage and arguably don't end up engaging anyone but
>> the framers.
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>
>> wrote:
>>>> I am looking for opinions on justice and permaculture (Larry offered his
>> opinion and some suggestions on child care at Hayes Valley Farm, which is
>> not what i am looking for).
>>>> 
>>>> For background on this discussion, including a definition of justice,
>> please refer to my original post at:
>> http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/20110119/000073.html
>>>> 
>>>> Rachel
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 31, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Jason Hiller wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I, for one, am not following what specifically you are looking for. Do
>> you not want opinions? Is it just agreement on whether certain questions are
>> valid to consider- without regard to what may or may not be people's
>> perspectives on them?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, I really think you need to define what you mean by justice and
>> get some agreement on that or the risk of misunderstanding your statements
>> might be high. I do not think it's quite a ready-made of a topic to toss out
>> without context. In fact, I might argue that justice itself doesn't exist in
>> singularity but necessitates at least two things before considering what is
>> just.
>>>>> 
>>>>> jh
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>> Please note this sentence in my original email: "I am not looking for
>> specific answers to these questions but rather would like to use them to ask
>> more generally: Are these questions the type of questions we would want to
>> ask ourselves as people who are interested in permaculture?  Are they part
>> of our commitment to permaculture?"
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is not about Hayes Valley Farm or child care.  It's about the
>> types of questions i am wondering we should raise.  Are we as
>> permaculturists interested in Chapter 14 (which is not about agriculture)
>> willing to ask the questions that might allow us to design ways of living
>> that are more just than what we have right now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not asking the people at HVF to offer child care - actually, i am
>> not asking them to do anything.  I am asking this list if these are the
>> sorts of questions we might want to ask.  I am in the role of a moderator
>> and have been trying to get us to discuss the role of questions of justice
>> within permaculture.  This discussion is called "permaculture & justice" not
>> "child care at HVF."  If i want child care at HVF, this list is the wrong
>> place to ask for it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rachel
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 29, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello again Rachel,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I didn't mean to be rude in my response to you.  I agree with all of
>> your concerns.  From my experience, the greatest danger in our permaculture
>> efforts is burn out.  We are so concerned with the state of the environment
>> and all the social injustice that we don't even know where to begin.  There
>> is only so much each of us can do.  Taking on too much is a recipe for
>> failure.  We have only so much time, energy, resources and so forth.  I
>> believe that we need to concentrate our efforts on what the people who are
>> involved choose to focus on.  That's why I suggested that if you have a good
>> idea about how our permaculture community can improve you should take it on
>> and to create it yourself.  Others will welcome your efforts and join in as
>> they are able or willing to.  I agree that having Hayes Valley Farm open on
>> weekends including child care, if their agreement with the city allows,
>> would be great!  Other practical ideas along these lines would certainly be
>> welcome especiall
>> y
>>> if someone was there to organize and take responsibility for the
>> project.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ~Larry
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> We can ask questions like this and have discussions, but unless
>> someone steps up and decides to take it on themselves, even the discussion
>> becomes a drain.  For example, if you think Hayes Valley Farm should be open
>> on weekends with child care, why not line up the volunteers and other
>> resources needed to bring the plan about and present it to the Hayes Valley
>> Farm People?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> Again, i want to share some more of my thinking around a question i
>> raised in that long email i sent and with that reenergize our discussion a
>> bit more.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I asked: How can we make sure that everybody can participate?  Are we
>> preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we overcome those
>> obstacles?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I was thinking about Hayes Valley Farm as an example. Let me preface
>> this by saying that i think it's wonderful that the Farm exists and i am
>> grateful of and admire the people who are putting a lot of work into the
>> Farm.  I am not raising these questions as criticism but just as some of the
>> things we might want to consider if we want to utilize the Farm to grow more
>> than food but also justice.  If volunteer hours are during a weekday when
>> people work, aren't we excluding people?  What about single mothers who
>> don't want to bring their child(ren) along or even those who would want to -
>> is there child care?  Do people really sign up for PDCs if they cannot
>> afford to pay anything?  How do we actually come across to others - maybe
>> people are turned off by the way we talk?  By the verbosity of my writing?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am not looking for specific answers to these questions but rather
>> would like to use them to ask more generally: Are these questions the type
>> of questions we would want to ask ourselves as people who are interested in
>> permaculture?  Are they part of our commitment to permaculture?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am looking forward to your thoughts!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rachel
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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