<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Jason,<div>I totally agree with you, and I think your point about permaculture starting at the individual level is dead on. The individual is an important step in the bottom up approach I mentioned, and skipping directly to the collective level is in my opinion extremely dangerous. In fact, people are far less likely to agree with or listen to our views on justice if we do not live them out through our own actions. In order to change any system, we must first change ourselves, and if that change is positive then I believe that eventually people will take notice. Perhaps we won't create a sweeping change on a large scale within our lifetime, but I think that if we can inspire a positive change in even a very small number of people then that is not a failure. Of course, throughout this whole process it's important to keep the goal of positive change in mind and make sure that our practices are constantly adapting and evolving toward that goal.</div><div><br></div><div>I also think your point about buildings and spaces being important as well is a good one, and it's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of applying similar ideas of justice to different areas or systems. I think that perhaps the question to ask is do we also call this permaculture, or is it something different that can be traced back to the same or similar roots? I myself am not a permaculture buff so I don't know enough about its exact definition to propose an answer to this question, but hopefully someone else with a bit more expertise in this arena will.</div><div><br></div><div>-Sam</div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:46:26 -0800<br>From: Jason Hiller <<a href="mailto:jdhiller@gmail.com">jdhiller@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>intersect"<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><<a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] more on justice & permaculture<br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><<a href="mailto:AANLkTinOTiRHHNSqn+U6RO4JestU0YApgdatThp-98KC@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTinOTiRHHNSqn+U6RO4JestU0YApgdatThp-98KC@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br><br>Hi Sam and thanks for jumping in. I'm sure every will agree your comments<br>are totally welcomed and appropriate.<br><br>The top down approach is definitely what I'm referencing. To me, getting my<br>permaculture game on means living a new culture. It means doing things that<br>are good and abide by the basic principles. I think it is true that one<br>could make use of these notions in a myriad of ways but there is a danger of<br>assimilating to the systemic problems when we talk about using the ideas or<br>the people in them to springboard into something as vast as justice.<br><br>To borrow someone's verbiage from before, I also take polite exception to<br>thinking that we are 'redesigning' our culture. I'm not sure that's the<br>opportunity we have. I see things more like redesigning ourselves, ie, my<br>own culture. Perhaps that comes across wrongly to some but isn't part of<br>being able to help or take care of others also knowing how to help and take<br>care of yourself?<br><br>I understand why agriculture is perhaps the biggest aspect of permaculture-<br>because we all need to eat. There's got to be a best practice for that and<br>I'm learning everything I can as I hold tight to the dream that one day I'll<br>be more self-reliant when it comes my own food. It may be my bias here as<br>someone with an architect's background but I think we also all need places<br>to live, work and sleep. So for me buildings and spaces are high up there.<br>If you can create abundance in warm, safe places then who wouldn't want to<br>be there?<br><br>I apologize if I'm rambling at all, does anyone else agree?<br><br>jh<br><br>On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Sam Wolpert <<a href="mailto:swolpert@ucsc.edu">swolpert@ucsc.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Hi All,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">My name is Sam Wolpert and I am one of Margaretha's students at UCSC. A<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">discussion in class prompted her to tell me about Chapter Fourteen, and I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">have been reading your discussions over the past several weeks. I will admit<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">that I don't know much about permaculture outside of what I have learned<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">from reading your emails, but I've found your discussion really interesting<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and it has given me some thoughts that I'd like to share. I'm not sure where<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">(if at all) my opinions fit into this discussion, but I hope you can all<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">gain something useful from them, and I would be very interested to hear your<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">feedback.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">My main reaction to Rachel's comments about justice and permaculture is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">this: it seems to me that certain ideas about justice have informed various<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">aspects of permaculture and not necessarily the other way around. That is,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">permaculture was built on certain ideas of justice, not justice was created<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">by permaculture. I think that perhaps the most useful thing to do is to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">identify these ideas of justice and how they are manifested through<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">permaculture, and then figure out how we can use those same ideas to rebuild<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">other areas of society from the bottom up. I feel that this is different<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">from the more top-down approach that seems to want to use permaculture to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">apply justice. Perhaps this is what Jason was trying to get at with his<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">"frameworks on top of frameworks" comment.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">While I do think permaculture can be a great example of a system built on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the ideas of justice Rachel mentioned, I think it is very important to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">remember permaculture is simply one implementation of these abstract ideas<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and does not create them in its own right. In fact, a commitment to these<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">abstract ideas could potentially give way to a number of different systems,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">some of which might deal with very different areas of our culture. If what<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Rachel is proposing is an expansion of the term "permaculture" to encompass<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">all of these systems, then I would say that perhaps that is too broad a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">definition. I think that, in its current form, permaculture can certainly be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">used as a window to ideas of justice, but is too specific an implementation<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of them to be necessarily suited to spreading those ideas to all aspects of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">our culture.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-Sam<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Message: 2<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:14:20 -0800<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net">lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] more on justice & permaculture<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:C70DA3CE-990A-4646-801F-DB6DD9CB9DEB@rabe.org">C70DA3CE-990A-4646-801F-DB6DD9CB9DEB@rabe.org</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">So permaculture is really permanent agriculture then? To me, redesigning<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">our culture seems like an incredible opportunity to "do it right," i.e.,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">respecting all aspects of justice i mentioned in my original email. But<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">maybe that is asking for too much? Making a project too large could<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">endanger it...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The working definition of justice that i suggested is at the bottom of my<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">original email. Justice is fair distribution but also ensuring that the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">obstacles to such fairness are removed, which requires representation,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">participation, and ensuring we are able to fulfill our capabilities.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 31, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Jason Hiller wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I had already read it. Didn't note a discussion on defining justice.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Also doesn't help clear up what you are trying to moderate exactly.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">If you are asking if permaculture needs to be more proactive as a social<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">justifying force than I would say no it does not. Frameworks on top of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">frameworks are tough to manage and arguably don't end up engaging anyone but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the framers.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I am looking for opinions on justice and permaculture (Larry offered his<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">opinion and some suggestions on child care at Hayes Valley Farm, which is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">not what i am looking for).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">For background on this discussion, including a definition of justice,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">please refer to my original post at:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/20110119/000073.html">http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/20110119/000073.html</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Rachel<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 31, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Jason Hiller wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I, for one, am not following what specifically you are looking for. Do<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">you not want opinions? Is it just agreement on whether certain questions are<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">valid to consider- without regard to what may or may not be people's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">perspectives on them?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Also, I really think you need to define what you mean by justice and<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">get some agreement on that or the risk of misunderstanding your statements<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">might be high. I do not think it's quite a ready-made of a topic to toss out<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">without context. In fact, I might argue that justice itself doesn't exist in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">singularity but necessitates at least two things before considering what is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">just.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">jh<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Please note this sentence in my original email: "I am not looking for<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">specific answers to these questions but rather would like to use them to ask<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">more generally: Are these questions the type of questions we would want to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ask ourselves as people who are interested in permaculture? Are they part<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of our commitment to permaculture?"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This is not about Hayes Valley Farm or child care. It's about the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">types of questions i am wondering we should raise. Are we as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">permaculturists interested in Chapter 14 (which is not about agriculture)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">willing to ask the questions that might allow us to design ways of living<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">that are more just than what we have right now?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I am not asking the people at HVF to offer child care - actually, i am<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">not asking them to do anything. I am asking this list if these are the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">sorts of questions we might want to ask. I am in the role of a moderator<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and have been trying to get us to discuss the role of questions of justice<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">within permaculture. This discussion is called "permaculture & justice" not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">"child care at HVF." If i want child care at HVF, this list is the wrong<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">place to ask for it.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Rachel<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 29, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Larry Korn wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hello again Rachel,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I didn't mean to be rude in my response to you. I agree with all of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">your concerns. From my experience, the greatest danger in our permaculture<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">efforts is burn out. We are so concerned with the state of the environment<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and all the social injustice that we don't even know where to begin. There<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is only so much each of us can do. Taking on too much is a recipe for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">failure. We have only so much time, energy, resources and so forth. I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">believe that we need to concentrate our efforts on what the people who are<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">involved choose to focus on. That's why I suggested that if you have a good<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">idea about how our permaculture community can improve you should take it on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and to create it yourself. Others will welcome your efforts and join in as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">they are able or willing to. I agree that having Hayes Valley Farm open on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">weekends including child care, if their agreement with the city allows,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">would be great! Other practical ideas along these lines would certainly be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">welcome especiall<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> y<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> if someone was there to organize and take responsibility for the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">project.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">~Larry<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Larry Korn <<a href="mailto:ldkorn@gmail.com">ldkorn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">We can ask questions like this and have discussions, but unless<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">someone steps up and decides to take it on themselves, even the discussion<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">becomes a drain. For example, if you think Hayes Valley Farm should be open<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">on weekends with child care, why not line up the volunteers and other<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">resources needed to bring the plan about and present it to the Hayes Valley<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Farm People?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org">rachel@rabe.org</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Again, i want to share some more of my thinking around a question i<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">raised in that long email i sent and with that reenergize our discussion a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">bit more.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I asked: How can we make sure that everybody can participate? Are we<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we overcome those<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">obstacles?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I was thinking about Hayes Valley Farm as an example. Let me preface<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">this by saying that i think it's wonderful that the Farm exists and i am<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">grateful of and admire the people who are putting a lot of work into the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Farm. I am not raising these questions as criticism but just as some of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">things we might want to consider if we want to utilize the Farm to grow more<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">than food but also justice. If volunteer hours are during a weekday when<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">people work, aren't we excluding people? What about single mothers who<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">don't want to bring their child(ren) along or even those who would want to -<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is there child care? Do people really sign up for PDCs if they cannot<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">afford to pay anything? How do we actually come across to others - maybe<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">people are turned off by the way we talk? By the verbosity of my writing?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I am not looking for specific answers to these questions but rather<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">would like to use them to ask more generally: Are these questions the type<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of questions we would want to ask ourselves as people who are interested in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">permaculture? Are they part of our commitment to permaculture?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I am looking forward to your thoughts!<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Rachel<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote 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