[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 18
Chris G
galanis_chris at yahoo.ca
Sun Jan 23 17:32:13 PST 2011
Thanks Rachel, I only have time to watch the video but I love her line of questioning and I agree that it's important to be examining these themes as we go forward with re-imagining new structures/practices.
I find it's difficult (in my personal experience) within like-minded organizations to separate the micro and the macro - many times I see individuals/allies projecting all the worlds' ills onto their small organization and it's members, and thus creating a lot of conflict which often threatens to overwhelm and stifle the positive work which the organization had set out to do at it's inception. As a result, both the opportunity to carry out the organizations' goals, as well as an opportunity to create a model of inclusive social justice disintegrate into in-fighting and inertia.
A current example from my personal life: there is a core group of about 15-20 of us advocating for legal status of graduate students as university employees/unionization at my institution. We expend a lot of time and energy towards outreach and encouraging any and all of the thousands of graduate employees to be present at meetings/events and to raise their concerns. Other than national days of action and campus rallys, we seldom have more than 20 individuals present, and 95-100% of them are from arts/humanities departments. I have brought up this question at meetings: at what point, if any, can we justifiably say that we are advocating for and representing the graduate student body? What is the balance between inclusivity and going forward with action?
My somewhat cynical suspicion is that for many of us (me included) it is often much more interesting and stimulating to debate identity politics and utopian theories than it is to carry out the unglamorous drudgery that makes up the bulk of the action required to affect real change.
--- On Sun, 1/23/11, chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net> wrote:
From: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>
Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 18
To: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
Received: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 4:24 PM
Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net
You can reach the person managing the list at
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner at lists.beforebefore.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)
2. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:55:27 -0800
From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org>
To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
Message-ID: <55833E4F-F92B-4B01-97A4-7F445EA39501 at rabe.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am tempted to let Chris have the last word because there's a big part of me that agrees with what you write, Chris. But since i am moderating this discussion, i would like to push a bit more...
As i see it there are two broad justice-related issues:
Incorporating considerations of aspects of justice into our redesign plans of a permaculture. This would mean that we would (try to) ensure that resources are fairly re-distributed, for example. This is more future oriented.
Ensuring that permaculture as it is practiced reflects all aspects of justice. This would mean, for example, that we (try to) ensure that people of all walks of life can learn permaculture. This would mean that we look at our movement to see if there's anything that inadvertently excludes people. This is more present oriented.
There is an interesting dissertation (thesis?) that Danielle Cohen wrote with a critique of the Transition Town movement that reflects my second point. See http://www.transitionnetwork.org/news/2010-12-20/reaching-out-resilience-inclusion-transition for a short interview and a link to her dissertation (which, btw, is fairly easy to read, especially for academic writing...). She raises concerns that the Transition Town movement is inadvertently excluding people because of how we talk, when we meet, etc.
Rachel
On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Chris G wrote:
> Thanks Rachel & Harshall for expanding on your thoughts/ideas. I think there's a hundred interesting threads that could come out of this, and i'll try to specifically respond to what's been said.
>
> I experience the same heartache when i witness the suffering taking place every day everywhere in the world because of inequality and unbalanced distribution. Many people I know feel the same heartache. Many people in the world are oblivious to it and, like Harshall experienced, it's not their concern, and they're busy trying to keep up and make sure they don't get trampled in the race. There's also a small group of people who wield the most power in this structure. They benefit greatly from it and will do everything in their power to keep the machine running smoothly. They likely believe the world is a very just place and that people who get lost in the shuffle do so because of an inherent fault in their individual character. Unfortunately, this small group of people have the most leverage in writing the laws of their respective nations. They also control the military/police forces who uphold these laws, and will use incredible amounts of violence to
sustain their position
s. This is simply my own opinion, and for me this is the root of unfair distribution of the things people need to survive. I don't think most people are bad, and I don't think most people would choose to have others suffers. I think it's easier on one's psyche to keep your head down and ignore these realities.
>
> In response to Rachel's initial question, I'm not convinced that permaculture can/will ultimately upend this structure and re-distribute resources fairly. I feel that this experiment of civilization will ultimately have to run it's course, and what that collapse will look like is anyone's guess. It could be gradual and mild, it could be quick and devastating. I really don't know. What I think many of us are doing thru these various investigations/re-imaginings, is what evolution has always done on this planet, and that is to create an abundance of new strategies/adaptations to deal with a changing ecosystem which can no longer support the status quo. In this light, I think permaculture and all the other thousands of experiments/movements are completely valid and in fact quite beautiful and uplifting. Which of them succeed and go on to provide the structures/strategies in the future is anyone's guess. For me, it's work that is both terribly exhilarating
and crushingly heartb
reaking.
>
> - cg
>
> _______________________________________________
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110123/1ee77fdc/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:08:45 -0800
From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org>
To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
Message-ID: <30990A6F-9F9E-40B8-97C4-80474D5E0D7B at rabe.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thank you so much, Sherri, for sharing this! There are a couple of sentences that i would like to highlight that beautifully capture what i've been trying to discuss:
"To me, like many of you, the issue of justice is not an issue that can be separated from the creation of equal shares or from any of the other fundamental human rights that are currently on the table. [...] It is only by building an environment that supports the growth of individuals and allows for the emergence of their own inherent wisdom that we will succeed in shifting the paradigm that has lead to the current state of destruction. My suggestion is to think of ways to bring forth and harmonize all of the positive behaviors that you seek to cultivate rather than focusing on the things that you would like to avoid."
I see this task as a permaculture task: How do we support the growth of a just, sustainable society?
Reading your post reminded me of Jane Addams' approach to diversity. She suggested that in order for us to develop an understanding of reality, we need to listen to the sharing of experience from as many people as possible from as many backgrounds as we can find. Only through the accumulation of these stories can we form a picture of what things are like. This might be one way of supporting the shift in consciousness. Are we set up to do this, though? Is there a diversity of voices in permaculture?
Rachel
On Jan 21, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Sherri L Mitchell wrote:
> Hello All:
>
> I am new to blogging so please be patient with me as I find my way. I would like to begin by stating clearly that I am not a permaculture expert. I am simply a woman who has some basic understandings about how we, as inhabitants of this planet, are able to live in harmony with our environment and from that place of harmony are able co-create a collective vision. Having been raised in the "third world of America" on an American Indian Reservation, I find that certain generalizations, though certainly understood, may not cast an accurate image of our potential futures. In urban centers there is without question an elitist racial structure connected to land ownership and subsequently to the ease of opportunity for food production. However, in many parts of the world it is the rural poor who maintain individual plots in order to meet the basic needs of the family. In addition, the practice of small scale personal food production is currently on the rise
amongst diverse groups g
lobally. These practices include the restoration of ancient seeds and traditional planting practices within American Indian communities, the emergence of community gardening projects throughout North America, small scale food production enterprises in West Africa, a strong personal food production movement amongst the youth in Japan and the creation of more and more traditional Dachniks in remote areas of Siberia. I see the growth of permaculture across the planet as a piece of a larger interconnected movement toward renewed connectivity to source. This particular global movement feels very similar to countless historical accounts of related movements that coincided with other large scale shifts for the planet. People the world over, whether they are privy to information regarding the acceleration of global destruction or not, are beginning to put up stores for a "winter" that they sense is on its way. What is most interesting to me about the
discussion is the idea of frag
mentation in this larger design.
>
> When I consider what is happening on the planet from a spiritual perspective it appears seamless. To me, like many of you, the issue of justice is not an issue that can be separated from the creation of equal shares or from any of the other fundamental human rights that are currently on the table. The fact that these rights are on the "table" helps to inform us of their interconnectedness to these discussions. That said, this does not mean that we must delineate black and white rules or strict codes of conduct that have the potential to introduce unnecessary friction into the community that is being formed. One can simply provide guidance related to the specific ideals that you are seeking to promote, such as kindness, generosity and compassion. Each individual may have their own understanding of what these concepts mean. Dictated rules may not align with all of these individualized understandings. If you collect a compilation of words or phrases
associated with these ideal
s and post them in various places around your space you create an environment that is not only all inclusive, but is also primed for the emergence of those ideals. Think about the work of Masaru Emoto, he is the Japanese scientist who did the water crystal tests. We are all comprised largely of water. The crystals within the water respond to the meaning of the words and phrases that we put forth. Creating words and phrases that coincide with your intent for today and into the future is a simple way to set a framework for the environment that you wish to create. For many years I used this same practice to address hate speech in schools. After seeing the slides of the water crystals that were exposed to negative language as opposed to those exposed to positive language, the kids easily understood that one's molecular structure could be changed as a result of the language that they were exposed to over time. It is the adults who tend to complicate things.
What is being sought i
s not the structuring of a society built upon a series of fragmented ideologies, it is the creation of a lifeway that is steeped in awareness of one's connectivity to the elements of creation. The individual is the first step in that evolution. It will never be possible to create rules that will bring forth an evolution of consciousness, which is really what is being dealt with here. It is only by building an environment that supports the growth of individuals and allows for the emergence of their own inherent wisdom that we will succeed in shifting the paradigm that has lead to the current state of destruction. My suggestion is to think of ways to bring forth and harmonize all of the positive behaviors that you seek to cultivate rather than focusing on the things that you would like to avoid. This way you create the vibrational frequency that will attract the energies capable of manifesting the vision that you are collectively holding. Of course, this
is simply one view. I
look forward to continued discussion.
>
> peace
> Sherri
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Chris G <galanis_chris at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hi all - one thing i find fascinating in these discussions is how we construct both past and future utopias based on *extremely* subjective variables. perhaps it's the difficulty in imagining anything outside of a context for which we have experience.which leads me to contemplate exactly what the "goal" of much of our work is. taking even just Rachel and Harshal's messages as examples (both of which resonate with me and i don't mean any disrespect in analyzing them) of assumptions:
>
> - all middle class are white
> having spent most of my life in the cities of montreal and toronto, two extremely multicultural cities, the ethnic profile of the middle class has changed tremendously from the 1960's to today. demographically, that shift will only increase over time. at least in urban areas, i imagine the generalizing of middle-class as "white" is a projection that will likely be less and less accurate in our lifetimes.
>
> - white middle class are the only people with access to backyards
> again, i see the opposite trend, where people of my generation, no matter the ethnic background, are buying up gaggles of condos on the periphery of inner cities - none of these have backyards. in fact the areas i see that do have gardens in cities i'm familiar with are the older run down neighbourhoods where there is often a large population of recent immigrants. i'm not even going to take new cookie-cutter subdivisions into account because it's my assumption that anyone who wants to live in a suburb is probably not trying to save the planet thru permaculture. rather, i see networks like this are probably a better reflection of people's interest in issues of permaculture and social justice.
>
> - when civilization collapses small groups of urban elite will be able to sustain their urban gardens peacefully
> this just makes me start to imagine all kinds of horrible scenarios (ie. Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"). If anything in history has been proven, it's that in the wake of civil collapse, things get brutal, nasty, and life becomes survival through the threat and act of physical violence. It's also pretty safe to assume that the uncontrolled fires, pollution from destroyed industry, and lack of clean water and waste removal will make any kind of urban farming impossible.
>
> - before the industrial era, everyone lived in small tribal societies who produced a minimal impact on the landbases they relied on
> i can't even begin to go into why this is a historical perspective which bears no resemblance to reality. past human cultures have been as varied and complex as one could ever imagine.
>
> - when civilization collapses, we can go back to living like these small tribal societies once did
> i'm afraid that we will have polluted our landbases and altered climate to such an extent that it would be impossible to support anything close to present day population numbers on the untainted resources which still exist, no matter what structures we put in place.
>
> sorry, that all sounds pretty nihilistic - and - i'm curious what motivates us (me?) to do this work, and what, really, is the expectation and/or outcome that we're working towards?
>
> thanks y'all, and thank-you for caring enough to explore these issues.
>
> - chris galanis
>
>
> --- On Fri, 1/21/11, chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net> wrote:
>
> From: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
> To: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> Received: Friday, January 21, 2011, 2:37 PM
>
> Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner at lists.beforebefore.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)
> 2. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Harshal Deshmukh)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:28 -0800
> From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <rachel at rabe.org>
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> Message-ID: <7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3 at rabe.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do
not address all the interlinked iss
ue
> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just in a different context...
>
> Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance. The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we want the future to look like?
>
> Rachel
>
> On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
>
> > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement. I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture. Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook. He also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything could technically be included in what we call permaculture.
> >
> > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella of permaculture?
> >
> > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to answer questions like this for themselves.
> >
> > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant for an open discussion like this one.
> >
> > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission to fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together? We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd
try to give the discussion context
.
> >
> > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.
> >
> > ~Larry
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <jasonamcdaniel at mac.com> wrote:
> > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.
> >
> > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM, chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net wrote:
> >
> > > Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > >
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner at lists.beforebefore.net
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800
> > > From: Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> > > intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing
> > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will wither.
> > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these
> > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what others
> > > think about this.
> > >
> > > ~Larry
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>wrote:
> > >
> > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We need
> > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of living. We
> > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about
> > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we live,
> > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more, though, i
> > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other
> > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined. And that
> > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if we
> > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own food?
> > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just
> > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?
> > >>
> > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of actively
> > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the
> > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our neighborhoods are
> > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not everybody
> > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have to
> > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am troubled
> > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.
> > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary culture"
> > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female dichotomy does
> > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.
> > >>
> > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me, a
> > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is supported by
> > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if we
> > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more formal
> > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow reflect
> > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)
> > >>
> > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:
> > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of
> > >> justice?
> > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is distributed
> > >> unjustly?
> > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?
> > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove obstacles
> > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?
> > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate? Are
> > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we overcome
> > >> those obstacles?
> > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how
> > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?
> > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe it
> > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge
> > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing everything
> > >> else will follow?
> > >>
> > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions. Also,
> > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do incorporate
> > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do this?
> > >>
> > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!
> > >>
> > >> Rachel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:
> > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just
> > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still
> > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond the
> > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice much
> > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked at the
> > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more
> > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and
> > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social
> > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader definition.
> > >>
> > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues
> > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):
> > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of environmental
> > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)
> > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans
> > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the predominant
> > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to honor
> > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights. (Iris
> > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)
> > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives. If
> > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown into
> > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their fullest
> > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)
> > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we ensure
> > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that disadvantaged/oppressed
> > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living downstream
> > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living upstream.
> > >> (Iris Marion Young)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > >>
> > >> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > www.onestrawrevolution.net
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110119/b52795ce/attachment.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > >
> > >
> > > End of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 4
> > > ***************************************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > www.onestrawrevolution.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:22:26 -0800
> From: Harshal Deshmukh <harshal05 at gmail.com>
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinvxA0ZxES=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all,
>
> I might not have read a lot of books on social changes or even permaculture
> and i might even be wrong about a few things here.
> Reading Rachel's post about a post oil world where everything now suddenly
> becomes local, isnt that how things were before we discovered cheap energy?
> wont be go back to living in small tribal societies and depend on the local
> environment to help sustain us? there will be a period of chaos and upheaval
> when we can no longer sustain ourselves with an oil based economy. but after
> that i do think the survivors will learn to live sustainably atleast until
> the next cheap source of energy is discovered. So maybe Rachel's view point
> (and i may be wrong in my understanding) is how do we avoid that period of
> unrest where mostly poor and uneducated people and those who don't have
> access to resources and how to we prepare them for this change. how do we
> prepare ourselves for this change that will if not in our life times, but
> will surely happen, where we have depleted our natural resources to such an
> extend that we cannot sustain our way of living. do can we realistically
> hope that permaculture or any other method allow us to consume as we do now
> and still leave this planet a better place.
> maybe permaculture is about growing food and sustainability.. but i think it
> is about a change of mindset too. it think it is about earth care, people
> care and fair share and any thing that promotes this.. be it yoga classes or
> teaching people to build soil.. if its advancing those 3 principals then it
> is permaculture in my mind.
> i have started rambling here and should stop.. but it is fun to read these
> discussions.
>
> Harshal
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org>wrote:
>
> > Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it
> > permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i
> > could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we
> > call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like
> > to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if
> > we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or
> > to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the
> > ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is
> > not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the
> > umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and
> > seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really
> > ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to
> > backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all
> > the interlinked issue
> > s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just
> > in a different context...
> >
> > Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these
> > concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The
> > oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the
> > country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except
> > Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks
> > to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to
> > prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because
> > transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance.
> > The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had
> > thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
> > areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we
> > want the future to look like?
> >
> > Rachel
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not
> > permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement.
> > I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first
> > taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for
> > achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.
> > Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook.
> > He also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't
> > contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the
> > principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since
> > ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything
> > could technically be included in what we call permaculture.
> > >
> > > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic
> > permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for
> > bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely
> > mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets
> > and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for
> > rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged
> > by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we
> > should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella
> > of permaculture?
> > >
> > > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas
> > about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and
> > reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and
> > microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what
> > nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of
> > a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in
> > permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be
> > considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does
> > include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is
> > just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything
> > like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That
> > depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to
> > answer questions like this for themselves.
> > >
> > > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that
> > practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to
> > achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should
> > offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it
> > permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as
> > people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but
> > should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own
> > personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant
> > for an open discussion like this one.
> > >
> > > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific
> > social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be
> > corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all
> > believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing
> > permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture
> > is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one
> > that addresses personal and social issues. But is it our primary mission to
> > fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply
> > practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together?
> > We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more
> > effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working
> > within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to
> > create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd
> > try to give the discussion context.
> > >
> > > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.
> > >
> > > ~Larry
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <jasonamcdaniel at mac.com>
> > wrote:
> > > I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many
> > beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on
> > permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice
> > movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the
> > hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.
> > >
> > > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that
> > "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines
> > justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of
> > political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on
> > my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as
> > Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.
> > >
> > > Jason
> > >
> > > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
> > > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > >
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > > >
> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net
> > > >
> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner at lists.beforebefore.net
> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800
> > > > From: Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> > > > intersect" <chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@
> > lists.beforebefore.net>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing
> > > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will
> > wither.
> > > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these
> > > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what
> > others
> > > > think about this.
> > > >
> > > > ~Larry
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org
> > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We
> > need
> > > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of living.
> > We
> > > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about
> > > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we
> > live,
> > > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,
> > though, i
> > > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other
> > > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.
> > And that
> > > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if
> > we
> > > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own
> > food?
> > > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just
> > > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of
> > actively
> > > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the
> > > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our
> > neighborhoods are
> > > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not
> > everybody
> > > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have
> > to
> > > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am
> > troubled
> > > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.
> > > >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary
> > culture"
> > > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female
> > dichotomy does
> > > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.
> > > >>
> > > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me,
> > a
> > > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is
> > supported by
> > > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if
> > we
> > > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more
> > formal
> > > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow
> > reflect
> > > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)
> > > >>
> > > >> So, the questions i am asking us are:
> > > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of
> > > >> justice?
> > > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just
> > > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is
> > distributed
> > > >> unjustly?
> > > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?
> > > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove
> > obstacles
> > > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?
> > > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?
> > Are
> > > >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we
> > overcome
> > > >> those obstacles?
> > > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how
> > > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?
> > > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe
> > it
> > > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge
> > > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing
> > everything
> > > >> else will follow?
> > > >>
> > > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.
> > Also,
> > > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do
> > incorporate
> > > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do
> > this?
> > > >>
> > > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!
> > > >>
> > > >> Rachel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:
> > > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just
> > > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still
> > > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond
> > the
> > > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice
> > much
> > > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked
> > at the
> > > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more
> > > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and
> > > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social
> > > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader
> > definition.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues
> > > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):
> > > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of
> > environmental
> > > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)
> > > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans
> > > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the
> > predominant
> > > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to
> > honor
> > > >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.
> > (Iris
> > > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)
> > > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives.
> > If
> > > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown
> > into
> > > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their
> > fullest
> > > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)
> > > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we
> > ensure
> > > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that
> > disadvantaged/oppressed
> > > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living
> > downstream
> > > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living
> > upstream.
> > > >> (Iris Marion Young)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > > >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > www.onestrawrevolution.net
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL: <
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110119/b52795ce/attachment.html
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > > >
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > End of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 4
> > > > ***************************************************************
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > >
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > www.onestrawrevolution.net
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> > >
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> > http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110121/165161f2/attachment.htm>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>
> End of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7
> ***************************************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sherri Mitchell,
> Treasurer, NNALSA
> JD Candidate 2011
> University of Arizona
> 202-299-4204
> _______________________________________________
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110123/22e2c4e3/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
End of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 4, Issue 18
****************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110123/12fba16f/attachment-0003.htm>
More information about the chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
mailing list