[Chapter_Fourteen] more on justice & permaculture

[Rachel A. Buddeberg]

I am looking for opinions on justice and permaculture (Larry offered his opinion and some suggestions on child care at Hayes Valley Farm, which is not what i am looking for). 

For background on this discussion, including a definition of justice, please refer to my original post at:  http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/20110119/000073.html

Rachel

On Jan 31, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Jason Hiller wrote:

> I, for one, am not following what specifically you are looking for. Do you not want opinions? Is it just agreement on whether certain questions are valid to consider- without regard to what may or may not be people's perspectives on them? 
> 
> Also, I really think you need to define what you mean by justice and get some agreement on that or the risk of misunderstanding your statements might be high. I do not think it's quite a ready-made of a topic to toss out without context. In fact, I might argue that justice itself doesn't exist in singularity but necessitates at least two things before considering what is just. 
> 
> jh
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org> wrote:
> Please note this sentence in my original email: "I am not looking for specific answers to these questions but rather would like to use them to ask more generally: Are these questions the type of questions we would want to ask ourselves as people who are interested in permaculture?  Are they part of our commitment to permaculture?"
> 
> This is not about Hayes Valley Farm or child care.  It's about the types of questions i am wondering we should raise.  Are we as permaculturists interested in Chapter 14 (which is not about agriculture) willing to ask the questions that might allow us to design ways of living that are more just than what we have right now? 
> 
> I am not asking the people at HVF to offer child care - actually, i am not asking them to do anything.  I am asking this list if these are the sorts of questions we might want to ask.  I am in the role of a moderator and have been trying to get us to discuss the role of questions of justice within permaculture.  This discussion is called "permaculture & justice" not "child care at HVF."  If i want child care at HVF, this list is the wrong place to ask for it. 
> 
> Rachel
> 
> 
> On Jan 29, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Larry Korn wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello again Rachel,
>>  
>> I didn't mean to be rude in my response to you.  I agree with all of your concerns.  From my experience, the greatest danger in our permaculture efforts is burn out.  We are so concerned with the state of the environment and all the social injustice that we don't even know where to begin.  There is only so much each of us can do.  Taking on too much is a recipe for failure.  We have only so much time, energy, resources and so forth.  I believe that we need to concentrate our efforts on what the people who are involved choose to focus on.  That's why I suggested that if you have a good idea about how our permaculture community can improve you should take it on and to create it yourself.  Others will welcome your efforts and join in as they are able or willing to.  I agree that having Hayes Valley Farm open on weekends including child care, if their agreement with the city allows, would be great!  Other practical ideas along these lines would certainly be welcome especially if someone was there to organize and take responsibility for the project.
>>  
>> ~Larry 
>> 
>>  
>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Larry Korn <ldkorn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> We can ask questions like this and have discussions, but unless someone steps up and decides to take it on themselves, even the discussion becomes a drain.  For example, if you think Hayes Valley Farm should be open on weekends with child care, why not line up the volunteers and other resources needed to bring the plan about and present it to the Hayes Valley Farm People?
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org> wrote:
>> Again, i want to share some more of my thinking around a question i raised in that long email i sent and with that reenergize our discussion a bit more.
>> 
>> I asked: How can we make sure that everybody can participate?  Are we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we overcome those obstacles?
>> 
>> I was thinking about Hayes Valley Farm as an example. Let me preface this by saying that i think it's wonderful that the Farm exists and i am grateful of and admire the people who are putting a lot of work into the Farm.  I am not raising these questions as criticism but just as some of the things we might want to consider if we want to utilize the Farm to grow more than food but also justice.  If volunteer hours are during a weekday when people work, aren't we excluding people?  What about single mothers who don't want to bring their child(ren) along or even those who would want to - is there child care?  Do people really sign up for PDCs if they cannot afford to pay anything?  How do we actually come across to others - maybe people are turned off by the way we talk?  By the verbosity of my writing?
>> 
>> I am not looking for specific answers to these questions but rather would like to use them to ask more generally: Are these questions the type of questions we would want to ask ourselves as people who are interested in permaculture?  Are they part of our commitment to permaculture?
>> 
>> I am looking forward to your thoughts!
>> 
>> Rachel
>> 

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