[Chapter_Fourteen] the fence

Fri Nov 12 16:41:29 PST 2010

Yah. Agreed.
On Nov 12, 2010 4:34 PM, "Jason Hiller" <jdhiller at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree that no-one should feel free to forward anything stated on the
> threads to anyone outside of the threads in the future. Being personally
> identifiable by our email addresses really makes this a sensitive issue.
>
> If this can't be adhered to then I personally can't be comfortable
> participating further. No harm with that move it seems but better to draw
> that boundary now or at least confront it if there is opposition to this
> notion.
>
> Agreed?
>
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Antonio Roman-Alcala <
> antidogmatist at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Levi-
>> Excuse me. All I was doing was following up on the interest expressed (in
>> this thread, by many HVF participants) to connect with Project Homeless
>> Connect and Growing Home Community Garden. Knowing someone very involved
in
>> those projects, I figured to make the connection. I didn't tell Megan,
the
>> director of GHCG, what to do or anything; just let her know that there
was
>> interest from HVF for support on this issue and that she may want to get
in
>> contact with HVF-ers to begin a dialog.
>>
>> I never spoke "for" HVF.
>>
>> I sincerely hope this is not seen as un-called for.
>> -Antonio
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Levi Maxwell <levisiah at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Antonio: Who are you to speak for Hayes Valley Farm; I personally am
>>> offended by this as a homeless individual who has been with HVF for
several
>>> month now. It is this sort of thing I had hoped would be worked out in
this
>>> forum; that is a general consensus would be made before calling other
>>> organizations.
>>>
>>> There is a disconnect that people have for some reason; you are not
>>> helping getting a middle man involved esp. before we talk to the
squatters
>>> (Though in actuality HVF are the squatters who took the homes of the
former
>>> community before gentrification, urban renewal, and "Green"
establishments
>>> came about).
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Vanessa Roland <
vanessa.roland at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do not have time to write much but am finding this thread very
>>>> interesting and love all of the comments, ideas, and breaking of
>>>> stereotypes. As a youth educator at HVF, I find the needles to be a
>>>> hazardous and ongoing problem that we are desperate to find solutions
to
>>>> sooner rather than later. We have been working with mostly small
children
>>>> who pick up any and everything they find onsite, especially the
unusual. So
>>>> one of our tasks as educators is to survey the farm for needles and
traces
>>>> of needle use before any of our classes. This is hard to do on such a
large
>>>> area and with so many places for things to hide although one of the
usual
>>>> places we find needles is the area near our classroom. We have
discussed
>>>> whether putting up signs saying children's garden or space might deter
the
>>>> usage and disposal, but I'm not sure that is really enough.
>>>>
>>>> I think reaching out to others in the neighborhood and community is a
>>>> great avenue as I know it is an issue in other areas of the
neighborhood. I
>>>> have friends with a small child who live a couple blocks away and
>>>> consistently find needles on the street which they find very
disturbing. I
>>>> also believe needles are found at Patricia's Green nearby and in
various
>>>> areas along Octavia. I think part of the reason for so many needles in
the
>>>> vicinity is the clean needle exchange nearby. I believe it is at the
LGBT
>>>> Community Center on Market and Octavia. Maybe they are a community to
reach
>>>> out to as well for ideas. I have the same question as Rachel about drop
>>>> boxes. Once going through all this effort to get high, will someone
make the
>>>> effort to dispose of the needle properly? and how is it monitored? I
know
>>>> very little about all of this so do not feel able to adequately answer
these
>>>> questions or develop clear solutions but am very open to learning,
>>>> collaborating, and outreach to make the situation better for all.
>>>>
>>>> I would love to not be fearful each time we have children onsite that
>>>> they might reach into a patch of squash or broccoli and find a needle.
>>>>
>>>> There is an elderly homeless man that I see frequently near the farm
whom
>>>> I believe sleeps in or near often. I find him to be friendly when I
walk by
>>>> and feel he might be a good person to reach out to for more information
>>>> about what happens at night. Has anyone talked with him yet?
>>>>
>>>> Vanessa
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org
>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A couple of thoughts:
>>>>>
>>>>> * If people come onto the Farm to use drugs, will they really use the
>>>>> needle drop boxes? This is an honest question - I don't know, though
it
>>>>> would seem odd to me that someone scales a fence, shoots up illegal
drugs,
>>>>> and then is orderly enough to dispose of their needle... Plus, there's
a
>>>>> question of trust - is someone monitoring the drop box?
>>>>> * Is needle sharing still an issue? I know this is a totally different
>>>>> can of worms but offering clean/sterile needles might be a need, too.
>>>>> * I very much liked Shannon's suggestion of working with Project
>>>>> Homeless Connect, especially given their background! I think this City
is in
>>>>> desperate need of rethinking how we treat our homeless neighbors.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rachel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Jason Hiller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just read the thread from start to now. Going back to the
conversation
>>>>> about the fence seems most useful. There is a general principle I'm
sure we
>>>>> all know that when you are in an argument or disagreement with someone
the
>>>>> best way to disarm them is to accept them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fence is ragged. If it weren't for the children's posters hanging
>>>>> from them I think the farm would look more like a private place to me
than a
>>>>> public place. Well, it still seems private and I think that is okay
because
>>>>> there are commodities and things of value on the inside even if it is
all of
>>>>> us that owns that stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing about crime is that you have to ultimately decide how much
>>>>> crime prevention is going to be apart of your life. If someone wants
to
>>>>> commit a crime there is truly very little you can do to stop them. If
they
>>>>> want to break in to your home or car the chances are that they are
going to
>>>>> do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly which parts are we identifying as criminal here- or maybe a
>>>>> better phrase is disagreeable to the site. I think IV drug use is a
concern
>>>>> and I could totally understand why Friend 2 decided to call whether
you
>>>>> liked it or not. I have put my hands into the broccoli patch and
harvested
>>>>> before anyone told me to be on the lookout for such a thing. I would
be very
>>>>> upset to say the least if I got stuck by a needle. IV drug use
transmits
>>>>> diseases and it is a very serious issue that you can't deliberate on
too
>>>>> long. I'd hate to see a resolution wait until after someone gets hurt.
>>>>>
>>>>> But other than that, do we care if people make use of the land? Do we
>>>>> have obligations to prevent such access?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would propose two things to help make a solution. One- create an
open,
>>>>> 24/7 public access to the site almost in a plaza-like feel. This gives
>>>>> people who need a place to sleep the ability to take advantage of it
in
>>>>> non-destructive ways. Accept them instead of make them scale the
fence.
>>>>> Greater access would have the benefit of letting the people who
respect the
>>>>> fence enter. In other words, the people that are jumping the fence are
the
>>>>> people that already don't mind acting criminally (although whether
that is
>>>>> criminal is up to debate).
>>>>>
>>>>> The second thing I would propose is, yes put in needle drop boxes. I
>>>>> would be surprised if with a few phone calls to the Health Department
if
>>>>> they wouldn't come out and give you what you need and organize the
pick up
>>>>> of them too. It is a bio-hazard and I think it really best to let
>>>>> professionals deal with the collection and removal. But more
importantly,
>>>>> how do you offer encouragement, support and information to users so
they
>>>>> reconsider. A simple sign that gets the message of "if you are going
to use
>>>>> here, at least follow these safety steps" could do wonders to reaching
those
>>>>> folks so that they become aware that their actions, while not judging
them,
>>>>> are causing others great concern.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be interested in helping figure out plans for these things if they
>>>>> seem viable to the larger farm group.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 2:17 AM, margaretha haughwout <
>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i've been staying silent on here in the hope we might get some new
>>>>>> voices on this thread. this thread has initiated several
conversations for
>>>>>> me outside of this list, one on one, which has been very interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one thing that has been gently pointed out to me is that the iv users
>>>>>> are not necessarily the homeless. they could easily be rich and
unable to
>>>>>> use at home. i think i sort of conflated the two initially. i
appreciate
>>>>>> that i was shown this, and that the showing was so gentle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and thank you rachel, these suggestions are very good. one of the
>>>>>> intentions behind starting this list was for people - newly forming
farms,
>>>>>> gardens, and other groups - to get practical advice from people who
have
>>>>>> experience working with alternative models of governance, economy,
labor,
>>>>>> human relationship, etc. there are maybe 50 people on this list at
this
>>>>>> point, and i'm hoping it will grow and that we can continue to advise
each
>>>>>> other on good practices as well as helping to clarify the issues as a
few
>>>>>> good friends have done offline in the past couple of days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> clearly, we have a lot of work to do in terms of building
relationships
>>>>>> and trust across the border between day and night. i look forward to
this
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i hope folks will continue to pipe in here. i'd love to further the
>>>>>> discussion about written contracts. very curious about this debate
rachel
>>>>>> and i began, and hope someone might elaborate on peoples or practices
that
>>>>>> are successful that don't have written contracts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> also continue to be curious about any suggestions we might have for
>>>>>> working with the nighttime community on site and more generally,
>>>>>> accountability structures that facilitate response - ability to the
land and
>>>>>> to the city (and to each other - !)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best wishes,
>>>>>> /m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org
>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that we'd have to tread carefully when involving outside
>>>>>>> agencies. HOT might be out because it's a City organization (though
there
>>>>>>> might be people working for HOT who have "I wish we could" ideas
that go
>>>>>>> beyond the standard way of thinking...). The reason I suggested
talking to
>>>>>>> other organizations is to learn from them. Maybe some of them have
figured
>>>>>>> out ways to address issues like addiction. But I think the most
important
>>>>>>> people to get involved in these discussions are the homeless
themselves, so
>>>>>>> that Portland organization might be a good org to reach out to (
>>>>>>> http://www.dignityvillage.org/). Maybe also Street Sheet (
>>>>>>> http://cohsf.org/streetsheet/). Reaching out would be just to get
>>>>>>> ideas for potential solutions...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Levi Maxwell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel that this issue is not only a farm issue but a city-wide
>>>>>>> issue as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will not agree with any banning or invasion of an individuals
home;
>>>>>>> HVF has for two decades been the workspace and living space for many
people
>>>>>>> left with very few options in a city that cares only somewhat for
Homeless
>>>>>>> people under 24 and women with children (Which is important as we
are more
>>>>>>> likely to need special services that plague our demographic).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is my belief in harm reduction as well as inter-community
>>>>>>> dialogue that the inhabitants and Farmworkers can come to a
resolution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However I have no romantic notions about this; mental illness is
>>>>>>> rampant in my community, esp. in the camper community who either
because of
>>>>>>> the feelings they have towards the shelter system or simply not
>>>>>>> understanding what is best for their health choose to live literally
in the
>>>>>>> streets (the vast majority do not). There will be drunks, there will
be
>>>>>>> heroin/meth/crack addicts, there will be people with mental
disabilities;
>>>>>>> but if we can work with everyone even with the cultural gaps of two
>>>>>>> disparate groups (because there are many cultures that belongs to
homeless
>>>>>>> people) we can come up with something.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HVF must stand together with a single voice and come to a conclusion
>>>>>>> that can be agreed upon, so that there won't be some individuals
calling
>>>>>>> police or disregarding new ground rules. We must not come off as
saviors;
>>>>>>> neithier should we push our beliefs of what is right for them (that
is
>>>>>>> alternative living situations); only suggestions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Long term goals like building up security or breaking down the
fence,
>>>>>>> I feel is too soon to think about because we should make sure the
>>>>>>> demographic discussed is the one doing damage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now a few feet away the staff and clients of a youth runaway
>>>>>>> house I am living at are talking about misidentification. We know
the
>>>>>>> neighbors for the most part don't like or want us here (even though
this
>>>>>>> building in one form or another has been a emergency home for 20
years and
>>>>>>> most residents have been here less then 5-10 years) and we have to
be on our
>>>>>>> P's and Q's when outside because any time anyone who looks young
makes noise
>>>>>>> or trouble we get blamed, putting our housing and future housing in
this
>>>>>>> building and other buildings around the city for us in jeopardy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The sons and daughters/students of this now gentrified, priviledged,
>>>>>>> & "hip" neighborhood walk around drunk, yelling at people,
screaming,
>>>>>>> creating noise, yet we a demographic in need of services the most
and
>>>>>>> understand our placement in these surrounding people's minds get
blamed.
>>>>>>> Phone calls and complaints come to the program manager and he has to
>>>>>>> decipher out what was us and what was them (Even though he can't
know since
>>>>>>> he is never here in the building itself).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So remember think about what HVF does before we call any outside
>>>>>>> organizations or people; some folks just want to live their life and
thread
>>>>>>> lightly and the ones who don't, those are the ones *we *need to
speak
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, margaretha haughwout <
>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> dear rachel and everyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks so much for writing and offering your insights and feedback.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a few brief responses with yes more to follow:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sorry to link to the google doc; i mean to link to this:
>>>>>>>> http://www.sfgov2.org/index.aspx?page=2041
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and no, we don't have a fixed decision making process at the farm
>>>>>>>> right now, beyond the small groups that we at times work within. i
work
>>>>>>>> within a few small groups at the farm. the one i work most actively
within
>>>>>>>> goes by consensus with the bigger decisions, and a conversation-
based
>>>>>>>> ad-hoc style for the smaller decisions. to be clear, the ad-hoc
nature at
>>>>>>>> the farm that i described with the friends as an example has many
>>>>>>>> advantages. it means we can respond very quickly in some
circumstances and
>>>>>>>> act with some freedom. i'm not necessarily arguing against it... is
there
>>>>>>>> someway we can have both consensus and ad-hoc? i worked as a
gardener for
>>>>>>>> over a decade, mostly with women; we would deliberate about what to
do about
>>>>>>>> an apple tree for a while, and then one of us would make a move.
similar
>>>>>>>> things seem to be happening at the farm, though there are more
people, and
>>>>>>>> not everyone is consulted on any given issue. i'm sure you can
imagine there
>>>>>>>> are some circumstances that arise where this may be more of a
problem...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in regards to Diana Leafe Christian, i'm so glad you brought her
up.
>>>>>>>> i was hoping she would figure here. to be honest, i'm wary of
written
>>>>>>>> documents, since they've been so successful of robbing native
peoples of
>>>>>>>> their land. have you heard criticisms of the written document? what
are the
>>>>>>>> pros and cons? what do non-literate cultures do?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> all the best wishes,
>>>>>>>> /m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <
rachel at rabe.org
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wow! There is lot to digest here, so I am only going to respond
>>>>>>>>> with some initial thoughts, probably more questions/reaction that
I had when
>>>>>>>>> reading these...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sit/Lie passed on Tuesday. To me this shows that the majority of
>>>>>>>>> the voting City does not want to see homeless. Homeless remind us
of the
>>>>>>>>> inequality we've created in this land of plenty where some don't
even have a
>>>>>>>>> place to sit or sleep or wash. To me this means that the farm
represents a
>>>>>>>>> real opportunity to show that things can be different. But it also
means
>>>>>>>>> the prevailing winds we have to deal with: Homeless are mostly
seen as a
>>>>>>>>> nuisance not as human beings with needs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I was walking from the Farm yesterday to one of the cafes to
use
>>>>>>>>> the restroom, I watched a homeless guy comb his beard and hair. He
seemed
>>>>>>>>> strangely dignified, as he was doing something so usual to us -
trying to
>>>>>>>>> maintain a resemblance of dignity in a very humiliating situation.
Are
>>>>>>>>> there maybe some homeless who are not addicts and could offer some
>>>>>>>>> suggestions and/or help? Why are the people using drugs (beyond
the
>>>>>>>>> addiction; addicts are very wounded people)? Would they get off
drugs if
>>>>>>>>> they had hope for something? Homeless are part of our communities.
Most
>>>>>>>>> people don't see them that way and we often don't talk to them to
see if
>>>>>>>>> they have solutions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a garden very close to the Farm run by the Project
Homeless
>>>>>>>>> Connect (it's on the other side of Octavia on Oak St). Would
working with
>>>>>>>>> them might help us figure out a solution? Also, what did the HOT
people
>>>>>>>>> say? (It looks like you linked to a Google doc. If that's true, I
am not
>>>>>>>>> able to access it). Also, there's dignity village in Portland (
>>>>>>>>> http://www.dignityvillage.org/).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how to approach the communication issues other than
>>>>>>>>> mentioning a couple of reactions: Calling HOT seemed like a breach
of the
>>>>>>>>> consensus and I am wondering if the person who called them
realizes that; do
>>>>>>>>> you have a process set up for making decisions. That's one thing
Diana
>>>>>>>>> Leafe Christian talks about as one of the absolute necessities for
a
>>>>>>>>> community: a written agreement on how important decisions are
made. To me,
>>>>>>>>> how to deal with the golden fence seems like a very important
discussion
>>>>>>>>> that might need to be made more formally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 2010, at 3:01 PM, margaretha haughwout wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last night a few of us went to see Starhawk’s new movie called
>>>>>>>>> Permaculture: the Growing Edge at Madrone Studios. One of the
things
>>>>>>>>> Starhawk said during the panel discussion is that the edge is
where the gold
>>>>>>>>> is. The margins, the fence line, the difficulties. It’s
interesting because
>>>>>>>>> there’s a way in which all of our problems/ opportunities (in
permaculture
>>>>>>>>> problems and opportunities are the same) at the farm can be
tracked to the
>>>>>>>>> reality and the metaphor of the fence. How can we make the most of
this
>>>>>>>>> edge?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Jay <protojay at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The morning after the “Attack on the Bees<
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/07/bee-murder-at-hayes-valley-farm-unknown-attacker-sprays-hives-with-pesticide.php
>”
>>>>>>>>>> at Hayes Valley Farm, I was walking around the fence line looking
for holes,
>>>>>>>>>> evidence of the vandalism, hoping to find a can of Raid or
something that
>>>>>>>>>> could be fingerprinted or traced.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I met one of the farm’s neighbors on this walk, the property
>>>>>>>>>> manager of the building on Octavia and Hickory. I asked him about
the holes
>>>>>>>>>> in the fence on Hickory Street, and mentioned the vandalism that
had
>>>>>>>>>> occurred the night before. He offered to keep an eye on the site
from his
>>>>>>>>>> window and when cruising around the neighborhood in his car.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since then, he has called me a few times. The day after our first
>>>>>>>>>> encounter, there was a burglary at the site, someone stole 3000
>>>>>>>>>> pounds of cardboard<
http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-07-23/bay-area/21994721_1_bee-colonies-vandals-sprayed
>,
>>>>>>>>>> and my new friend called to let me know when the east gate was
open and not
>>>>>>>>>> locked. This is how I learned about the crime. After that, there
were a few
>>>>>>>>>> other late night calls with thoughts on security, and a few
neighborly
>>>>>>>>>> hellos over the summer. We talked about the fence-line some more,
the new
>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood-watch styled public safety group being formed to
ensure safety
>>>>>>>>>> and security on the farm and in the neighborhood, and friendly
small-talk.
>>>>>>>>>> I invited him to participate in the Public Safety Meetings with
the Hayes
>>>>>>>>>> Valley Neighborhood Association. Later, I learned that he has
lived there
>>>>>>>>>> for years, has been his old cars in the alley since the before
the freeway
>>>>>>>>>> closed (he actually used to have more of them), and had even
complained
>>>>>>>>>> about the farm (on behalf of his tenants?) in the earliest of
days of the
>>>>>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Two weeks ago a security specialist walked the site with me and
>>>>>>>>>> assessed areas of concern, mostly along the fence and in a few
places within
>>>>>>>>>> the site. Just last week, during METHODS 101: Permaculture Design
>>>>>>>>>> Basics<
https://docs1.google.com/document/d/1m2-j1YZPmjG-sh_s3PdcieqLL_wQqrW9Rwxr1dCYgC8/edit#
>,
>>>>>>>>>> one of the students decided to address safety and security on the
farm as
>>>>>>>>>> their design project. During the site assessment, issues were
identified.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There were some trees and overgrown brush along the alley at
>>>>>>>>>> Octavia and Hickory Streets that were preventing any of the
lights from the
>>>>>>>>>> big parking lot on Oak and Octavia from shining into the alley,
creating a
>>>>>>>>>> dark, boxed-in area that was obvious to the both the security
specialist and
>>>>>>>>>> the newest of observers as the easiest access point and biggest
“hole in the
>>>>>>>>>> fence”.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The assessment continued to describe the problem with clean up
here
>>>>>>>>>> is that the trees were hanging over the old cars. Cars which
belonged to
>>>>>>>>>> the same property manager. Apparently he had been asked many
times by the
>>>>>>>>>> community to move them, to help in clean up the alley, and he had
always
>>>>>>>>>> ignored these requests.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Near the end of the METHODS 101 class, I noticed Robert parking
in
>>>>>>>>>> the alley, and began to talk to him again from the top of the
off-ramp
>>>>>>>>>> berms. We talked about the trees and the light and he offered to
help. We
>>>>>>>>>> talked about his cars being in the way, and he offered to move
them. He
>>>>>>>>>> went on to to tell me why there were so many paper plates near
the corner of
>>>>>>>>>> the farm’s fence. He explained he had been feeding some cats who
patrolled
>>>>>>>>>> the farm at night by. We talked a little bit about how the pile
of plates
>>>>>>>>>> weren’t really the best thing for the plants growing on the
fance, and that
>>>>>>>>>> maybe we could figure out another way. Feeding them on the
outside wouldn’t
>>>>>>>>>> work, putting a dish on top of the fence wouldn’t work. He liked
the idea
>>>>>>>>>> of a feeding tray attached to the inside of the fence, that he
could pour
>>>>>>>>>> food into...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then, we talked about the tomatoes. He was very impressed with
>>>>>>>>>> them and I gave him a handful to enjoy, here is the shot I took
through the
>>>>>>>>>> fence - http://protojay.tumblr.com/post/1489300766.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Jay
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:59 PM, margaretha haughwout <
>>>>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That story reminds us that our presence is new on this site.
>>>>>>>>>>> Homeless folks have been on site for much longer than we have,
and this is
>>>>>>>>>>> an uncomfortable positioning. Many of us know the narratives of
>>>>>>>>>>> gentrification and marginalization that frequently come with the
creation of
>>>>>>>>>>> urban gardens; the white people come and make a robust and
pleasing green
>>>>>>>>>>> space, the rents go up and so does intolerance. And yet we also
have an
>>>>>>>>>>> obligation to the city government for permitting us to be on
site, and an
>>>>>>>>>>> obligation to the neighborhood, to look “respectable.” We need
to protect
>>>>>>>>>>> the daytime community from getting hurt, and the tomatoes from
getting
>>>>>>>>>>> trampled. How do the permaculture values of earth care, people
care, and
>>>>>>>>>>> fair share figure here? How do we care for all the people that
tread across
>>>>>>>>>>> this site? What is the fair share? Who gets the food? Who
recognizes it as
>>>>>>>>>>> food? Is it too far fetched to think this farm might help the
drug addicts
>>>>>>>>>>> that trespass here? Today Jay and I discussed designing a safe
enclosed
>>>>>>>>>>> space with small trees and other food forest layers for the
nighttime users.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Another acquaintance regularly meets with the upper crust
>>>>>>>>>>> designers in Hayes Valley (of which there are many). These are
people who
>>>>>>>>>>> don’t know permaculture, never come to the farm, but think they
know urban
>>>>>>>>>>> design. She says they frequently ask what the hell is going on
over there.
>>>>>>>>>>> Why doesn’t it look good? Our fence line is in flux right now.
There’s a big
>>>>>>>>>>> area we’re sheet mulching and there’s a lot of cardboard. It
looks like
>>>>>>>>>>> trash because it is! We’re closing that loop, turning trash into
nutrient
>>>>>>>>>>> and resource. We start all of our plants from seed, rather than
buying big
>>>>>>>>>>> full plants, so we aren’t transforming overnight. We’re a farm.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Somehow to me the fence is emblematic of our unique positioning
as
>>>>>>>>>>> an inner city farm. It is a constant reminder of the larger
national,
>>>>>>>>>>> civilized, and urban infrastructures we operate within: of land
ownership,
>>>>>>>>>>> upper class values, of real and perceived dangers that come from
class
>>>>>>>>>>> divisions and unequal distribution of resources.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> /m
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Jay <protojay at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My good friend tells this story:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> “Last fall, a group of us would meet for brunch on Sundays.
This
>>>>>>>>>>>> was before we were given permission to open the gates (to
>>>>>>>>>>>> activate the space and provide the community with access to
it).
>>>>>>>>>>>> We were dreaming about "Volunteer Work Parties" on the giant
lot. After
>>>>>>>>>>>> brunch, we would walk around the perimeter fences to observe
the site.
>>>>>>>>>>>> After a few walks, we had met quite a few neighbors, who loved
to talk
>>>>>>>>>>>> about the potential for the space and what they had been
observing over
>>>>>>>>>>>> time. We came to know the fence line very well. We would admire
the
>>>>>>>>>>>> recently dumped furniture, look for freshly cut holes in the
fence and other
>>>>>>>>>>>> signs of life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Along Laguna Street, at the west gate, two large gates locked
>>>>>>>>>>>> with a formidable chain and series of married locks. The fences
were all
>>>>>>>>>>>> topped with barbed wire. At the south gate, along Oak street
just east of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Laguna, there was a hole in the fence big enough to crawl
through but not so
>>>>>>>>>>>> big that you could push a shopping cart through. The hole in
the cyclone
>>>>>>>>>>>> fencing was hastily cut and sharp of the passageway. The more
formal double
>>>>>>>>>>>> doors at the east gate was unlockable. The frame of the doors
was
>>>>>>>>>>>> stationary and the fencing slid open like a shower curtain. It
was clear
>>>>>>>>>>>> people had been camping under one of the Melaleuca trees. A
tent and tarp,
>>>>>>>>>>>> piles of trash, and a dumpster lined the path. On one section
of the fence
>>>>>>>>>>>> near the east gate, an entire section of the fence was removed
from pole to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pole.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On one beautiful sunny day last December, we visited the site
>>>>>>>>>>>> with a good friend who was excited to shoot some "before shots"
of the site
>>>>>>>>>>>> for a documentary. We parked in the Octavia and Oak street
parking lot,
>>>>>>>>>>>> turned on the camera, hauling tripods and some extra gear, and
approached
>>>>>>>>>>>> the east gate. As we "slid back the curtain" of the fence and
walked right
>>>>>>>>>>>> in, we were immediately warned off by a barking dog. The large,
gray black
>>>>>>>>>>>> lab-mix was protecting its owner's campsite. We continued, and
proceeded
>>>>>>>>>>>> along the ravine. We took video of the homeless' camp, the
tents and trash
>>>>>>>>>>>> that lined the inside of the path. And the broken bottles and
needles that
>>>>>>>>>>>> lie all over the place.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We slowly walked through the site and up towards the west gate.
>>>>>>>>>>>> We had been there for a little while, testing different lenses
and lighting
>>>>>>>>>>>> and shooting some footage of the ramps. At one point, while
heading back
>>>>>>>>>>>> down the offramp, we noticed something "going down" at the east
gate. A
>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of more people were now assembling there, milling about
behind the
>>>>>>>>>>>> parking valet shack that was stationed right outside the gates.
We wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>> to get out of there, but all of this new action was happening
at our
>>>>>>>>>>>> entrance (and planned exit). With some adrenaline, we
remembered the hole
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the south gate and decided we should try to squeeze through
their rather
>>>>>>>>>>>> than "run the gauntlet" of the barking dog, the camp, and the
new gang
>>>>>>>>>>>> forming at the gate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I went first through the hole, to show my documentarian friend
>>>>>>>>>>>> how to get low and avoid the spikes. As she got through, she
started to
>>>>>>>>>>>> stand up and scratched her arm on the fence. It looked pretty
bad. That
>>>>>>>>>>>> night, after showing her family what happened, she never came
back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> farm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, the footage is in an archive somewhere (for now) and one
day
>>>>>>>>>>>> she might come back to shoot some "after" shots...”
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Jay
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://protojay.tumblr.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:47 PM, margaretha haughwout <
>>>>>>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On our farm we find heroin needles in between the broccoli
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plants. We have a barbed wire fence that wraps around the
entire 2.5 acres
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of our "freeway food forest" -- a food forest that is rising
from the ruins
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a freeway that collapsed and then lay dormant for 20 years.
At night
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is a pregnant cat that makes the place her own (all the
sheet mulching
>>>>>>>>>>>>> has stirred up the mice and rats). Other folks crawl through
the fence at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> night too. With perhaps one exception, the people that come at
night aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same people that come during the day. Often “fresh”
needles appear in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the morning. The stories we write about here all have to do
with the chain
>>>>>>>>>>>>> link and barbed wire fence that was on site when we arrived.
The forces it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is meant to keep out, the forces it is meant to contain, the
edge it creates
>>>>>>>>>>>>> around our site, the fact that it is there at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are regular potlucks Tuesday evenings on the farm. Last
>>>>>>>>>>>>> week I didn't go, but I live really close by, so I got a text
message from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend saying she way stopping by. She came up saying she
wouldn't stay long
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as she was getting up at 5:30am tomorrow morning to let H.O.T.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Homeless Outreach Team<
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m2-j1YZPmjG-sh_s3PdcieqLL_wQqrW9Rwxr1dCYgC8/edit?hl=en>through
the gates to talk to the folks that were sleeping there. "I guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone called them,” she said. I said I’d get up with her. I
was curious. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> few minutes later I got another text message from another
friend leaving the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> potluck. "Coming over!" it said. Friend no. 2 came up and we
told her how we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were getting up early for the Homeless Outreach Team. "Oh,"
friend no. 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said; "I called them. That was me."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This call was predicated by several debates in our community
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the homeless. Some feel we should let them sleep in the
farm, others
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are more wary. Personally, I like the idea of city worn
homeless people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> finding the soft sheet mulch to sleep on, and maybe even
helping themselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to some cherry tomatoes. For a farm built on the principles of
people care
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fair share as well as earth care, we are torn by what it
means to give
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them the boot. Youth education coordinators despair over the
fact that a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> child might come across a needle before they do, and since we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost our bees this summer from a senseless act of violence<
http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/blog/324-two-killed-and-one-attempt-at-the-farm.html
>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are all a little more skittish. The last time I sat with
the women who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were at my house after the potluck, we had heated debate on
the topic around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another table at another house in the neighborhood. It ended
with all of us
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreeing if there was such a thing as a needle drop box that
was configured
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a way that you couldn't reach back in and use the old
needles, it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a good idea to install a few of those around the perimeter.
We also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agreed that eventually we should probably just take the fence
down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The obvious issue at hand in this story might be how to handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the issue of homelessness and nighttime drug use on our urban
farm. The not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> so obvious issue in this story, but one that we want to tease
out and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> explore is how we decide what to do about the homelessness and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the needles - and the fence. In the scenario above, some of
the farmers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> debated it at length and then one person took action ad-hoc
without really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> having a method of checking in with the rest of the community.
Also, the way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which the conversations occurred were very ad-hoc, and
happened at a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> variety of nodes located not only on the farm but in the
neighborhood around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it - both inside and outside the farm. There is a lot to say
here about how
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we make decisions on the farm, particularly when they
negotiate between the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> farm and the city, the inner and the outer, day and night,
permacultural and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> urban. A lot of times decisions happen exactly in the manner
I’m describing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> above. This is a thread someone might pick up for discussion:
the thread of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision making and accountability when our values ask us to
be responsible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the land, the common people and the terms of our lease asks
us to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accountable to a larger hierarchy. I love the unfolding at
play in the story
>>>>>>>>>>>>> above, but what if friend no. 2 decided to call the cops
instead of H.O.T.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ♫ Spread the word, please help us support the farm on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kickstarter! http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Communications 151
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter fourteen<
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> "If we're not working together, we're destroying each other."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ♫ Spread the word, please help us support the farm on
>>>>>>>>>>> Kickstarter! http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
>>>>>>>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
>>>>>>>>>>> Communications 151
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> chapter fourteen<
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
>>>>>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> "If we're not working together, we're destroying each other."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ♫ Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
>>>>>>>>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
>>>>>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
>>>>>>>>> Communications 151
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> chapter fourteen<
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
>>>>>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
>>>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ♫ Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
>>>>>>>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
>>>>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
>>>>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
>>>>>>>> Communications 151
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> chapter fourteen<
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>>>>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
>>>>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
>>>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ♫ Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
>>>>>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
>>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
>>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
>>>>>> Communications 151
>>>>>>
>>>>>> chapter fourteen<
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>
>>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
>>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
>>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
>>>> Vanessa Roland
>>>> vanessa.roland at gmail.com
>>>> 513.227.9545
>>>> www.vanessaroland.com
>>>>
>>>> "I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till
>>>> sundown,
>>>> for going out, I found, was really going in." ~John Muir
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>>
>>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>>
>>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> sf urban ag alliance @ sfuaa.org
>> movie and blog @ insearchofgoodfood.org
>> community farm @ www.alemanyfarm.org
>> permaculty @ www.permaculture-sf.org
>> newspaper @
>> http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/
>> personal music @ www.myspace.com/ammra
>> people people @www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
>>
>>
http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
>>
>>
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