[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 2, Issue 27

ron stanford rstan1122 at gmail.com
Thu Nov 11 23:51:19 PST 2010 

‘People concern themselves with making money, whatever their profession.
However, in the square they come into contact with other people’s
aspirations and discover the common characteristics of the human species.
The individual realizes that he or she belongs to a community, and that they
will only achieve what they want if their aspirations are in line with those
of their fellow human beings.  There needs to be a place where this can
happen, where the individual feels represented, for example by a government
elected by the whole community of individuals. This last idea is one of my
great concerns. I feel that the public square has lost its representative
character.’
related change of pace...quote from Louis Kahn, (working on a short piece
based on this quote,.will find the reference...)...
re the intros:
came to this via margaretha, (silent h...), and hayes valley farm in s.f.
Our group designed an experimental greenhouse structure for the farm, and in
getting it built, (lots and lots of little half day volunteer group stints,
(big ups to jason who's been a key player in that effort...),  found myself
more than a little inspired by the people, the place, and broader 'project'
of transformation via 'living' landscapes...

r.


On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Chris G <galanis_chris at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Thanks Margaretha, Ron and Jason for your insights into some of the issues
> that were brought up. I really appreciate these levels of conversation and
> the knowledge and spirit everyone brings with them. I suppose that's a big
> reason for me being on the list. I supposed I could call myself one who's
> interested in interdisciplinary modes of art making, heavily influenced by
> research into fields which often fall under anthropology/philosophy. I've
> worked in many modes including community art, art therapy, and commercial
> tv/film industry. At the moment i'm intensely interested in various modes of
> resistance both in the present and historically, in particular indigenous
> american resistance to colonialism which continues to this day in many
> forms. I'm a recent transplant from Montreal to New Mexico, where issues of
> water management are intense and visible, and both heartbreaking and
> encouraging at the same time.
>
>
>
> Two things that I'm contemplating based on some of your responses to the
> thread on capitalism:
>
>
>
> 1) What is the difference/effect on economy when, in the 1800's, paper
> currency emerged for the first time (I could be wrong about this). Before
> that, silver and gold coins/beads/jewels etc. actualy embodied the worth
> which they represented. The material itself actually held the value of the
> currency (hence different sizes and levels of purity etc.) Or else the
> scarcity and aesthetic appreciation held the value of the currency. With
> paper money, there in inherently nothing more of value to a $1000 bill than
> a $1 bill. It's completely abstract. Take that to the next level of credit
> cards, etc. and I think there's some fascinating correlations that could be
> made there. Of course, I'm not idealizing historical barter systems either,
> because those could also be manipulated and exploited, as for example the
> exchange rate of a donkey could change drastically from Mexico City to Santa
> Fe to New Orleans to St. Louis. And most likely, the advantage tended to
> side with the territory/government which held the most political/military
> power.
>
>
> 2) And on Jason's exploration of literacy rates related to capitalism, I've
> recently been fascinated to learn the the Triple Alliance empire in
> mesoamerica (Aztec) were likely the first civilization to create mandatory
> schooling and literacy for all their citizens. It also had a very rich
> philosophical tradition who's literary output surpassed even ancient greece.
> As more and more is being discovered (at this very moment) about
> pre-columbian civilizations in the Americas, i'm finding it increasingly
> imperative to examine those systems closely since (most of us here i
> assume?) are actually living on these same lands at the moment, and not in
> europe. For me, most everything begins with landbases, and the
> challenges/solutions are best understood in the context of the land in which
> they occur (both geographically, as well as culturally/historically).
>
> xox
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 11/11/10,
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 2, Issue 27
> To: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> Received: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 1:00 PM
>
> Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
>     chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. introductions (margaretha haughwout)
>    2. Re: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net - money,    capitalism
>       (Jason Hiller)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:50:23 -0800
> From: margaretha haughwout <xmargarethax at gmail.com>
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
>     intersect"    <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: [Chapter_Fourteen] introductions
> Message-ID:
>     <AANLkTikj_XiZRz8pC+YG8ZXZyddu6isGsmoYJgQoT=AO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> shall we introduce ourselves and say what brings us to the conversation? i
> am wary of throwing weight around our labels as if some of us have more
> "authority" to speak, so i might suggest we limit that and rather state
> what
> our interests are in coming to this list, and the background work that
> informs that interest.
>
> name: margaretha - the h is silent.
>
> my interest in founding this list is multifold. i started it to help
> facilitate the sharing of advice on community building within
> the permaculture movement, as well as for us to deepen our sense of the
> stakes and to articulate those stakes properly in doing the work that we
> are
> doing.  am interested in reaching out to elders in our communities who
> might
> be able to advise us younger ones.
>
> in my PDC, when we got to chapter fourteen the whole class had a total
> meltdown. we were all very close and felt very positive about one another;
> then we got to chapter fourteen (the last day) and we imploded. we had very
> different ideas about what is possible; identity politics became difficult;
> some made broad sweeping statements that alienated whole swaths of the
> class. i do believe working out our ideas about what is possible,
> sharpening
> our critiques of what isn't working, and working to develop a more ethical
> worldview that can be articulated and defended can only help our cause/s.
>
> so anyway, feel free to work off this thread and introduce yourself!
>
> /m
>
>
> --
>
> ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
>
> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
>
> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> University of California Santa Cruz
> Communications 151
>
> chapter fourteen<
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> http://www.beforebefore.net/
> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
>
> I am best contacted by email:
> xmargarethax at gmail.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:50:59 -0800
> From: Jason Hiller <jdhiller at gmail.com>
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
>     intersect"    <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net -
>     money,    capitalism
> Message-ID:
>     <AANLkTi=L1ioOfh02ajB6-C1SkCSNMU-0fJX7TjQWCuX9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks Chris, those are some thought provoking statements. I'd first like
> to
> echo a little of what Ron was saying in that while it may be true that
> money
> was not apart of the typical Feudal model of governance in Europe for the
> era of kings, it has been apart of many cultures. In fact, the Ancient
> Greeks popularized the use of money and innovated coin making techniques.
> Also, Barrons in the feudal system did receive money/gold cold. The class
> separation then was truly evident in that some people had money and other
> literally could not ever get any. You worked the land and did what tasks
> you
> were told to do by your land ruler or person who owned the land you lived
> on. Again we see private property and money are related somehow.
>
> So then, what of capitalism and its always forceful pursuit to enslave you!
> Whether through video games, new breadmakers or 401k retirement plans? I
> personally find it first very helpful to distinguish the problems you see
> in
> the world as either being cultural/social problems vs being systemic ones.
> The fact that Americans require 24/7 entertainment is a cultural issue and
> many other capitalistic countries don't obsess over video games as we do.
> My
> question becomes, why do Americans crave so much "entertainment"?
>
> The consumer society is so much more powerful than we typically
> acknowledge.
> The problem is that "we" keep buying this stuff, so "they" keep making it.
> That is how capitalism works and it is succeeding. The more people want
> things, the more business tries to give it to them.
>
> About sustainability in capitalism- this is a tough nut to crack because it
> is the phrase du' jour. Sustainability is subjective. To sustain the
> indigenous societies you are right, far less was require by way of natural
> resources or human labor. But then, why are we different? What are we
> sustaining? What values of our culture have impacted our needs such that we
> need to keep 'progress' going? In part, I find the current American picture
> to require that progress is apart of sustainability. I have much to say on
> natural resources but I'm not sure I could do it justice in this format.
> But
> I would like to address on that topic the issue of oil. Oil itself is not
> destructive. Again it is what our demands are that oil is useful for that
> is
> destructive. What is it in our culture that prevents people from bringing
> their own bags to go grocery shopping? Plastic bags are horrendous on the
> environment and they are simply a matter of convenience. Here in San
> Francisco I love that everyone carries their own jars and bags to go
> shopping from. We are eliminating packaging waste from every corner
> possible
> and there is way more to be done on this effort. Packaging waste is a pet
> peeve of mine when considering environmental issues- but again look at it
> as
> a cultural problem not something systemic to capitalism (because it's not).
> Rainbow Grocery does tremendous bulk bin volume shopping here because the
> people demand that service. The workers and owners at Rainbow are doing
> quite well financially to supply our neighborhood with this clear conscious
> alternative.
>
> Anyway I wanted to say about oil. Oil itself as a substance - if you can
> strip away all the nasty things big business has done with it - is one of
> the most efficient molecule chains of energy ever seen on the planet. The
> carbon chains which are naturally created have so much energy potential
> that
> it is incredible. That was a scientific discovery at first which no doubt
> occurred because scientists weren't spending their time making pinheads or
> growing potatoes. It's the 'we progress because someone else is working on
> our behalf' thing. Nuclear energy is the only energy source/discovery that
> I
> know of that matches or betters the efficiency of fossil fuel. Now say what
> you will about the Oil Industry- a nasty greedy batch of fucks they are we
> all agree- but oil is magnificent. It is so magnificent that there is
> research going on right now where people are trying to artificially create
> the carbon chains of oil in labs such that the energy in is less than that
> which you get out. That is energy sustainability to some degree and it
> happens as a result for the demand of people to change the culture of oil
> consumption. In other words, if Oil were outlawed tomorrow for whatever, I
> bet you would see "synthetic" oils popping up. Clean burning engines and
> fuel efficiency is a joke in the U.S. We all know why no-one drives an
> American car in China right? Because for the last 10 or 15 years 'our' cars
> did not meet their emissions standards. That's right, in China cars were
> required to have MPG higher than what US auto manufacturers were making.
> Isn't that confusing? Chinese companies actually have had to reduce their
> MPG ratings on cars sold in the US because the US Auto Lobbies made them.
> You know why of course - because Auto and Oil go together and the worse
> your
> MPG the more you spend on gasoline. This is all provable and is even public
> record. So that is government corruption for you in my opinion. Backroom
> laws created to force Chinese manufacturers to create worse products so
> that
> American consumers spend more money.
>
> Sorry, I digressed hugely. I wanted to say that if you want to make a
> difference in this world you have to audit how and where you spend your
> money. That is the key. I'd be willing to go into how the current Fed and
> Obama's economic policy of printing more money is going to mean more video
> games and less leisure for you if you were interested. A quick cap is just
> realize that the more money that floats through the system, the more people
> are going to try to sell you stuff or work for it.
>
> Back to money and markets- If you don't know what a Short is in finance you
> should look into it because it is a pretty sophisticated 'financial
> instrument'. Here's a
> link.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_%28finance%29#History>That
> was first used in the early 1600s by a Dutch Trading company.
> Basically
> here's how it works. Let's use Corn as an example. Let's say Ron is a corn
> farmer, you are a Corn buyer and I am a Corn trader (meaning the person
> that
> gets the corn from Ron and sells it to you- why we need traders is another
> long digress.) Ron is currently selling corn for $100 per barrel. I think
> there is going to be a bumper corn crop this year and because the increase
> in supply the price will fall. You want to lock up a contract for your corn
> and guarantee that you can get 1,000,000 barrels for your corn tortilla
> making plant. I tell you I will sell you those barrels for $95 each and we
> make a contract that says I will deliver that corn in 3 months time.
> Meanwhile, a bumper crop ensues and Ron's price naturally falls to
> $80/barrel to keep up with the rest of the corn farmers. In 3 months time,
> I
> buy 1,000,000 barrels for $80 and sell them to you for $95 each. $15 profit
> per barrel is pretty nice huh. So everyone kind of gets what they want
> right? You paid more than you would have if you had waited the 3 months but
> you wanted to peace of mind of knowing you were getting your order filled.
> It's kind of like waiting for those shoes you want to go on sale or not.
>
> The flip side is what if there is a corn blight. The price of corn rockets
> up to $140 a barrel. I clearly can't afford a loss of $45 per barrel-- it
> would bankrupt me. Well luckily I bought insurance from AIG against such a
> thing. So AIG will pay me the extra per barrel. You make out awesome in
> this
> deal because all the other corn tortilla makers have to raise their prices
> because the cost of corn sky rocketed but you locked in the low price. You
> make a lot of money.
>
> Now if AIG went and took that insurance "security" of my contract with you
> and repackaged it in the same way making a bet on whether corn will go up
> or
> down there you have derivative trading. That is what sank our economy in
> late 2008 and it was AIG's fault.
>
> Anyway... My point was going to be that money creates incentive and
> competition which I know are disputable in terms of whether they are good
> things. In capitalism they are basically the only things. Those things are
> what have given us much of the technology but even better is the knowledge.
> Knowledge is the one thing that keeps our society progressing. We all want
> and crave more knowledge and such the leisure pursuits I mentioned are
> really meant to target that aspect of our lives. The fact that we can all
> read and write seems silly to point out but 200 years ago that wasn't true
> of European societies. Many American Indian tribes didn't have written
> languages. Writing and language itself was a technology and I imagine there
> were some people opposed to the idea back in the day.
>
> Sorry if I left and dangling threads or that this is too long. Thanks for
> reading and I look forward to your feedback.
>
>
> Jason
>
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 8:20 PM, ron stanford <rstan1122 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > -big ole potential thread there with the life and death histories of
> > various 'civilizations'/civic models...(the neanderthals lasted a
> relatively
> > long time too...)
> > -did want to challenge a bit the idea that money in europe somehow
> started
> > in the 1800's...this is true of paper currency as we know it, but markets
> > and 'currency' in one form or another have been around for as long as
> human
> > civilization...commodities exchanges, weights and measures, taxes, debt,
> > legal contracts, etc. go back at least to the iron age,  j.c. throwing
> the
> > 'money' changers out of the temple...roman coin...even stock exchanges:
> > government securities were traded in 13th century france...markets
> generally
> > have to be actively restrained to be kept out of play...
> >
> > r.
> > (landscape urbanist, (architecture-industrial design))
> > M. Arch. (Berkeley), B.A. Linguistics, (U. MD)
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Chris G <galanis_chris at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> In reply to Jason's post regarding capitalism;
> >>
> >> I agree with your initial argument, which is that capitalism itself is
> not
> >> ultimately the physical manifestation of evil which plagues the world.
> It's
> >> impossible to single out any one structure, idea, person, or system to
> >> represent all the ills of the world, and I'm glad that this fact is not
> >> simply being glossed over in this very interesting discussion.
> >>
> >> And, to address certain statements which you made and offer further
> >> questions:
> >>
> >> * "All your downtime to think about Foucault and such is because someone
> >> somewhere
> >> else is using their labor to support you. Capitalism is the best model
> >> economists know of that supports creativity and progress."*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *Oh my!  I wish i lived in the world you live in.  I'm dying to know
> >> where all this "downtime" which was promised us has gone to. Supposedly
> much
> >> innovation since the 18th century was intended to allow us to enjoy more
> >> time for leisure and less time "working." Well, I look around me, and I
> >> certainly don't see carefree people of leisure. Ironically, in the case
> of
> >> video games, when people "do" have "free time" they choose to spend
> hours
> >> playing task based games which are essentially "work" such as when you
> have
> >> to get the flame-sword, then bring it to GolgaWorld, where you acquire a
> >> silver amulet, which you then have to trade for blahblah..etc...it seems
> to
> >> me that capitalism is not at all in the business of affording leisure
> time,
> >> but rather in making it impossible for us to actually have any down
> time,
> >> due to the producer/consumer paradigm many have bought into.*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *As well, I question what one might see as "creativity" and "progress."
> >> On the one hand, creating all these industrial machines in the past
> 100-200
> >> years could be seen as incredibly creative. And, it could be argued that
> >> creating all these machines out of non-renweable materials which depend
> on a
> >> substance as destructive as oil - well, that's actually pretty idiotic
> and
> >> short-sighted in the end. *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *I was reading something in a book on the Anasazi of the Southwest U.S.
> >> where the author was explaining how the early Anasazi sometimes didn't
> >> change a design or technology for thousands and thousands of years, such
> as
> >> the stone cutting tools they used. This was explained as a "lack of
> >> innovation and progress" compared to the height of Anasazi culture and
> the
> >> phenomenon of Chaco Canyon where incredible leaps of technology and
> >> knowledge were made in the span of a few hundred years. However. It
> doesn't
> >> take into account that the "primitive" culture which didn't "progress"
> >> managed to do just fine for thousands and thousands of years. Compare
> this
> >> to the period of great progress, where the culture utterly collapsed
> within
> >> a few hundred years.*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *I think this is where all modern economic models fail miserably, due to
> >> their mind-numbing inability to imagine models which are sustainable in
> the
> >> long term. Which is what we're talking about I think...*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *"Private property"
> >> It is generally accepted that without private property there can be no
> >> money
> >> creation. We may fantasize about a world without money but I just don't
> >> see
> >> it happening soon.*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *I would like to offer up the fact that in most of Europe, there was no
> >> such thing as money up until the 1800's. To put this into context, out
> of
> >> the estimated 200,000 years of the history of our species, 199,800 years
> of
> >> it went along fine without money. Perhaps it really isn't so hard to
> imagine
> >> a world without money after all?*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *thanks all again for some very interesting reading. I also appreciate
> >> some of you mentioning where you're coming from and what your area of
> >> interest/research is. As for myself, i'm doing an MFA in Art & Ecology
> at
> >> UNM in albuquerque.*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *    - chris galanis
> >> *
> >> --- On *Wed, 11/10/10,
> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>*
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net<
> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>
> >> Subject: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net Digest, Vol 2, Issue 23
> >> To: chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net
> >> Received: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 7:56 PM
> >>
> >> Send chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list submissions to
> >>     chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
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> >
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>     chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net<
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> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>     chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner at lists.beforebefore.net<
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> >
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >>    1. Re: Chapter 14 (Jason Hiller)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:46:51 -0800
> >> From: Jason Hiller <jdhiller at gmail.com<
> http://mc/compose?to=jdhiller@gmail.com>
> >> >
> >> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
> >>     intersect"    <
> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >
> >> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Chapter 14
> >> Message-ID:
> >>     <AANLkTi=2VLAE0ELqF-1jvHa-+3gFNCD4EDew8GCurJLr at mail.gmail.com<
> http://mc/compose?to=3gFNCD4EDew8GCurJLr@mail.gmail.com>
> >> >
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> Wow, I just skimmed the thread... I'll try to work in a few of my
> thoughts
> >> and hopefully do it briefly.
> >>
> >> *"is permaculture as a movement moving fast enough to reach enough
> people
> >> and turn back the devastation of capitalism?"*
> >>
> >> I probably stand alone in saying that capitalism is not devastating.
> I've
> >> heard so many speak so ill of it but I think they really are referring
> to
> >> other things, like greed and corruption. You may say those are inherent
> >> into
> >> capitalism but I say they are more inherent to government. The fact of
> >> capitalism is that people require "pins". Adam Smith gave us a great
> story
> >> about why one person trying to make pins would be hugely unsuccessful.
> >> Mine
> >> and refine your metal, extrude it into shape, attach the heads, etc etc.
> >> You'd be lucky to average a few pins a month and imagine how long it
> would
> >> take to get a nice collection of pins such that you can start your
> sewing
> >> for the clothes you will want. The thing about economics is that it is
> the
> >> study (or some say science) of how to organize labor. The principle of
> >> profit is usually what gets attacked in capitalism but reserve judgment
> on
> >> that part just yet- since that is the part most interested in government
> >> as
> >> well.
> >>
> >> So if instead you focus your energy into just assemble the 'head' onto
> >> pins
> >> you could probably knock out many more... I can pull up the Smith
> passage
> >> later for reference since I'm just working from memory. But you
> understand
> >> the point is that the mass of people who demand pins can now get as many
> >> pins as they need because they aren't making them themselves. Of course
> >> the
> >> pinmaker industry is happy because those people get to support the
> >> clothing
> >> makers who need the pins and they don't need to make the clothes
> >> themselves.
> >>
> >>
> >> Capitalism is the reason why you are on a computer with a highly
> advanced
> >> form of communication- compared to how people historically communicated.
> >> All
> >> your downtime to think about Foucault and such is because someone
> >> somewhere
> >> else is using their labor to support you. Capitalism is the best model
> >> economists know of that supports creativity and progress. Maybe you
> don't
> >> like those things and that's cool too. We have Socialistic aspects to
> our
> >> capitalistic system that will support you too.
> >>
> >> The profit to corruption pathway is probably what you find so
> devastating.
> >> I'd like to hear some specific examples of what is devastating.
> >>
> >> "Private property"
> >> It is generally accepted that without private property there can be no
> >> money
> >> creation. We may fantasize about a world without money but I just don't
> >> see
> >> it happening soon. I think a revision of economic principles is
> certainly
> >> in
> >> order but private property is something people fight wars over and it
> >> would
> >> come to that if there were a serious movement to eliminate private
> >> property.
> >>
> >>
> >> So,
> >> what do I do since I acknowledge imbalance in the system? I don't spend
> >> money where it doesn't need to go. I pay cash whenever possible. I
> support
> >> local economies and generally take all my political issues and 'what's
> >> wrong
> >> with the world' issues and direct them towards big business. We really
> >> need
> >> to organize our efforts against the billion dollar profit machines. DO
> you
> >> know General Motors is reporting TWO BILLION DOLLARS of profit for the
> >> THIRD
> >> QUARTER of this year? That is 3 months folks.. 3 fucking months and 2
> >> billion. Don't you recall that General Motors went bankrupt? The stock
> >> went
> >> to ZERO and the entire company was bankrupt.. meaning insolvent. That
> was
> >> a
> >> little more than a year ago. This makes my skin crawl and blood boil.
> >> Corruption allowed this to happen and government allowed this to happen,
> >> it
> >> was not capitalism. There should be no such company and they certainly
> >> should be reporting obscene profit. Sorry, I get excited about these
> >> things.
> >> IF you really want to hear me curse let's talk about Goldman Sachs. My
> >> stomach turns to a pit of raging fire on the thought of investment
> >> bankers.
> >> Again- it is government that has failed us, not capitalism.
> >>
> >> Okay, sorry if I glossed over some stuff or didn't fully acknowledge any
> >> other comments, there is just so much here!
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:06 PM, margaretha haughwout <
> >> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > is permaculture as a movement moving fast enough to reach enough
> people
> >> and
> >> > turn back the devastation of capitalism? no, probably not.
> >> > should we do it anyway? yes, because nothing is for certain.
> >> > time isn't as absolute as it seems, so maybe we can slow it down by
> >> > planting food on a freeway for example.
> >> >
> >> > should we have a master plan beyond taking a PDC or studying some
> other
> >> > 10000-year old technology and implementing the principles? i vote no.
> i
> >> am
> >> > very tired of masters. and each local circumstance requires it's own
> >> > observation and interaction.
> >> >
> >> > all best,
> >> > /m
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Antonio Roman-Alcala <
> >> > antidogmatist at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=antidogmatist@gmail.com
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> to clarify my last post:
> >> >> i didn't mean to imply that horizontal, rhizomatic, network (pick
> your
> >> >> metaphor!) structures of organizations are inherently ineffective or
> >> faulty,
> >> >> but rather that I am increasingly aware of a tendency on the left,
> >> permie,
> >> >> etc circles to idealize these structures as more "correct". obviously
> >> there
> >> >> are so many ways to build a garden, and so many ways to create
> change.
> >> our
> >> >> challenge, i believe, is to analytically and critically discern what
> >> works
> >> >> for us in our particular conditions.
> >> >>
> >> >> Metaphors from nature as applied social organization are tricky,
> though
> >> >> they may be useful at times. But personally I try to steer clear from
> >> "this
> >> >> is true in nature" therefore "this is how we should organize".
> Patterns
> >> are
> >> >> patterns, and should be observed, not used as a basis for dogma. (i'm
> >> not
> >> >> accusing anyone on this thread of that--just pointing out a pattern
> >> I've
> >> >> seen, and participated in!)
> >> >>
> >> >> all the best,
> >> >> antonio
> >> >>
> >> >> p.s. i love the "reverse hierarchy" model...this is exactly what
> modern
> >> >> nation state governments have ass backwards: local communities are
> >> beholden
> >> >> to decisions made on successively larger levels, reducing
> >> accountability,
> >> >> transparency, and appropriateness to place. double agree with the
> last
> >> >> margaretha's paragraph about our work's focus:  What I would describe
> >> as
> >> >> being broadly concerned with strengthening our communities' nodes,
> >> hubs, and
> >> >> links, while somehow not ignoring the equally important dismantling
> (or
> >> >> making obsolete?) of the current structures/networks of destructive
> >> power.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:46 AM, margaretha haughwout <
> >> >> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> dear ron, antonio, rachel and all --
> >> >>>
> >> >>> many interesting threads through the conversation here. ron, thanks
> so
> >> >>> much for starting the conversation; it seems a vital one to begin at
> >> the
> >> >>> launch of this new list -- how effective is permaculture at enacting
> >> real
> >> >>> change?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> one thing i always found sort of frustrating with the foucault i've
> >> read
> >> >>> is his avoidance of a clear definition of power. he talks about it
> all
> >> the
> >> >>> time but rarely defines it. the most i can get for a definition out
> of
> >> >>> discipline and punish (the whole book can be found here<
> >> http://aaaaarg.org/text/15247/discipline-and-punish-birth-prison>- just
> >> register!)  is something along the lines that power is the ability to
> >> >>> exert force. the ability to exert force via a hierarchical king or
> >> >>> hierarchical nation state needs no long explication as to its
> >> devastation.
> >> >>> if we were to toss deleuze (hardt and negri too?) into the mix (i
> know
> >> i
> >> >>> know, so predictable), we'd be able to think broadly about the
> double
> >> >>> death-like nature of fixed, organizations, of solidified power but
> >> also to
> >> >>> argue that the only way out of hierarchy + capitalism is a
> rhizomatic
> >> ever
> >> >>> multiplying network, where relations and cross pollinations are made
> >> >>> spontaneously and across species. in permaculture terms i think this
> >> would
> >> >>> be adding more, diverse life to problems (integrating rather than
> >> >>> segregating), closing loops, valuing diversity. and yes thanks to
> >> rachel for
> >> >>> that keeper of a pdf - finding the leverage points in the system....
> >> >>>
> >> >>> there are many things i agree with in gladwell's article you mention
> >> >>> above, antonio. i have the same criticism of clay shirky (though i
> >> wish
> >> >>> gladwell had been more explicit about the implicit racism shirky's
> >> social
> >> >>> media story) and of social media. however there are lots of
> different
> >> kind
> >> >>> of networks -- centralized networks (which may or may not be the
> same
> >> as top
> >> >>> down hierarchies), decentralized networks, and distributed networks
> >> being 3
> >> >>> main kinds -- and i question whether it is a simply matter of
> vertical
> >> vs.
> >> >>> lateral. for instance, one functioning model for land stewardship
> for
> >> >>> indigenous tribes in maine (among other places) is a reverse
> >> hierarchy,
> >> >>> where the people living closest to the land have ultimate veto
> power.
> >> this
> >> >>> is in effect still a centralized network where leaders of nations
> >> petition
> >> >>> tribes who petition clans who petition families who petition women
> >> (the
> >> >>> closest to the land) - who then say yea or nay. i think we need a
> more
> >> >>> coherent analysis of networks. there are strong tie networks and
> weak
> >> tie
> >> >>> networks that can apply to any of the types described above; no
> doubt
> >> the
> >> >>> internet supplies an abundance of weak ties - weak ties only to
> other
> >> humans
> >> >>> with the exception of the occasional lolcat.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> the water wars of bolivia, i think, are a good example of a
> successful
> >> >>> decentralized resistance.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> i also think it is a matter of who tells the history. we all know
> that
> >> >>> hierarchies align histories with powerful central figures, while the
> >> people,
> >> >>> the connections between people, and between people and place, go
> >> >>> unrecognized.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> no doubt hierarchy combined with capitalism is a positive feedback
> >> loop
> >> >>> that seems to eat every opposition and grow from it. but i do think
> >> there
> >> >>> are cracks in the system. an economic system based on profit cannot
> >> continue
> >> >>> indefinitely. i would also assert that power is in fact afraid of
> >> networks.
> >> >>> take the virus, for example; both computer viruses and SARS travel
> >> networks
> >> >>> (be it the internet or airlines), and this terrifies. also
> regardless
> >> of
> >> >>> whether al qaeda actually was a decentralized network or a
> hierarchy,
> >> the
> >> >>> narrative sold to the american public is that al qaeda cells are
> >> >>> distributed, can exist independently of each other - therefore
> scary!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> i think the real challenge is to make our networks thick and full of
> >> >>> trust. thick with people and community as well as plants and
> animals.
> >> if we
> >> >>> are tied to place as closely as we are to our children, lovers or
> our
> >> >>> friends, we fight for them. so, it is not just a matter of making a
> >> backyard
> >> >>> garden, but to make gardens with others in empty lots, toss seed
> >> bombs, and
> >> >>> engage the marginal. it is also a matter of closing loops - feed off
> >> of the
> >> >>> waste that capitalism outpours, turn it all into nutrient and grow
> >> food from
> >> >>> its disaster. is it possible to turn the feedback loop around?
> >> undoubtedly,
> >> >>> power is not going to give up without a fight, and as derrick jensen
> >> so
> >> >>> convincingly argues, we need each of us to figure out when, where
> and
> >> how we
> >> >>> draw the line.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> /m
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <
> rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> There was an interesting (and somewhat depressing/discouraging)
> >> >>>> interview with Heather Rogers on Against the Grain a few weeks ago
> >> who was
> >> >>>> talking exactly about the co-option of alternative ways of being by
> >> the
> >> >>>> mainstream capitalist system.  See
> >> >>>>
> >>
> http://www.againstthegrain.org/program/342/id/351519/mon-8-30-10-green-panaceas
> >> .
> >> >>>>  BUT as I don't see one thing that would bring the whole system
> down
> >> (well,
> >> >>>> with the except of running out of oil but even that doesn't seem to
> >> stop the
> >> >>>> system, at least not yet), I think we just have to keep trying from
> >> as many
> >> >>>> angles as we can think of.  Maybe there are leverage points that we
> >> hit by
> >> >>>> accident or design that can change things more dramatically (
> >> >>>> http://www.sustainer.org/?page_id=106).  Also, I think it's
> >> important
> >> >>>> to show that alternatives are possible because one counter-argument
> >> that is
> >> >>>> often hurled at people suggesting alternatives is the "it's not
> >> possible"
> >> >>>> mantra.  If we can point to place where it is done that
> >> counter-argument
> >> >>>> implodes...
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thanks for sending the two Foucault pieces, Ron!
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Antonio Roman-Alcala wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> A few brief comments:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 1) My entrance into the world of permaculture was surely rooted in
> >> just
> >> >>>> this foucault-style description of means of challenging power
> (though
> >> I've
> >> >>>> never read him of course). But as I've spent time doing this work,
> I
> >> am
> >> >>>> extremely skeptical about its ability to fundamentally alter the
> >> conditions
> >> >>>> of production (food or otherwise) or address longstanding
> iniquities,
> >> at
> >> >>>> least in any relatively quick timespan (50-100 years). The reasons
> >> for this
> >> >>>> are manifold, but one major aspect is that the capitalist system
> has
> >> a
> >> >>>> powerful drive to re-incorporate critique into its functions and
> >> >>>> justifications for its continued existence. (see "The New Spirit of
> >> >>>> Capitalism" by Luc Boltanski and Eve Chiapello). Another critique
> I'm
> >> >>>> finding more and more persuasive is that the network, horizontal
> mode
> >> of
> >> >>>> organization (while it has incredible value in many respects) is
> not
> >> >>>> necessary conducive to mass culture change in a society where so
> many
> >> of the
> >> >>>> links in that network are tenuous or weak (see Malcolm Gladwell's
> >> >>>> article<
> >>
> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=1
> >on
> >> Twitter: I don't agree with everything he says but its something to
> >> >>>> consider). Effective counter-power may require more resources and
> >> >>>> organization than the network permaculturists/anti-capitalists/etc
> >> currently
> >> >>>> manifest. I don't know.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 2) Re: specialization: this is a distinct outgrowth of university
> >> system
> >> >>>> expansion in the US in the late 19th, early 20th century. Before
> >> that, most
> >> >>>> people were autodidacts and "experts" (or at least dabblers) in all
> >> sorts of
> >> >>>> fields of inquiry (both upper class officially "educated" and
> >> >>>> homesteader/farmer alike). I'd really like to see us promoting a
> >> vision of a
> >> >>>> new world where we can have both the benefits of specialist
> knowledge
> >> >>>> production and see a generalization of the population's
> understanding
> >> of the
> >> >>>> world and (the way I fantasize about my own future) even an ability
> >> to make
> >> >>>> a living from multiple interests/vocations: farming/gardening/the
> >> production
> >> >>>> of basic needs as one aspect that a majority of folks are involved
> >> in.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> 3) Re: land question. Also, I'm not sure it's "the solution", but
> >> it's
> >> >>>> interesting to consider, as a post-capitalist land ownership model
> to
> >> pursue
> >> >>>> (if we can't forsee a return to non-ownership of land, aka full
> >> commons):
> >> >>>> Henry George and his "single land tax". just google it, pretty easy
> >> to find
> >> >>>> info.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Best,
> >> >>>> Antonio
> >> >>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 8:57 PM, ron stanford <rstan1122 at gmail.com<
> http://mc/compose?to=rstan1122@gmail.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> some foucault and tangential permaculture...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The analysis of power *?should not concern itself with the
> regulated
> >> >>>>> and legitimate forms of power in their central locations', **but
> >> **'with
> >> >>>>> power at its extremities, in its ultimate destinations, with those
> >> points
> >> >>>>> where it becomes capillary...?** **?...the point where power
> >> surmounts
> >> >>>>> the rules of right which organize and delimit it, and extends
> itself
> >> beyond
> >> >>>>> them...?*
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> *p.96 "Two Lectures." Power / Knowledge: Selected Interviews and
> >> Other
> >> >>>>> Writings, 1972-1977. Ed.*
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> *Colin Gordon. Brighton: Harvester, 1980.*
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> This 'de-centered' interpretation of power and its potential
> >> pragmatic
> >> >>>>> implications, (of which I had personally been generally
> skeptical),
> >> is what
> >> >>>>> I was referring to in offering 'Permaculture' as a kind of
> >> qualified,
> >> >>>>> (obviously 'minimalizing'), 'acquittal' of Foucault. While he
> >> himself did
> >> >>>>> not focus on pragmatist 'action' per se, my point would be that as
> >> one does
> >> >>>>> look at Permaculture based 'action', (essntially
> building-rebuilding
> >> >>>>> sustainable/resilient ecologies from the ground up), Foucault's
> >> conceptual
> >> >>>>> formation presents an imageable overlay on which to map the
> >> >>>>> coherence/co-adherents of that action as influence and
> >> organizational
> >> >>>>> transformation moves back *up* the scale.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The example we're all somewhat involved in would obviously be this
> >> >>>>> broad question of transforming food production/land use
> >> >>>>> patterns-distribution networks-consumption patterns. At one end of
> >> the scale
> >> >>>>> there might be agribusiness-trade regimes-federal
> >> subsidies-commodities
> >> >>>>> trading/global shipping-big box distribution/advertising-predatory
> >> >>>>> pricing...*(collectively represented as juridicial or monarchic
> >> power
> >> >>>>> in the liberal and marxist models)*. But it is the other end of
> the
> >> >>>>> scale, at the most discrete level, *the 'capillary' level*, where
> >> >>>>> Foucault's model suggests the power actually manifests itself, in
> >> what you
> >> >>>>> put into your mouth on a daily basis, in the not so subtle
> coercion
> >> to
> >> >>>>> 'super size', to accept the putative convenience the system
> offers,
> >> to 'pay
> >> >>>>> no attention to the infrastructure behind the 'package', etc.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Conventional 'structuralist' thinking, (simplified into clich?,
> (and
> >> I
> >> >>>>> still consider myself to be something of a structuralist...),
> might
> >> argue
> >> >>>>> that one person's organic garden or individual food choices cannot
> >> really
> >> >>>>> impact such a large scale problem; That It must be attacked closer
> >> to the
> >> >>>>> multiple heads, at the level of trade accords and protocols,
> perhaps
> >> with
> >> >>>>> direct action against the companies/the W.T.O., better mass
> >> organizing
> >> >>>>> strategies, mass boycotts, etc...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Permaculture, it seems to me,(without any necessity for discarding
> >> >>>>> other transformational strategies), has a relatively inspiring
> track
> >> record
> >> >>>>> of more or less *doing* the solution, and allowing the collective
> >> >>>>> 'power' of the idea to accumulate discretely. And in that way,
> >> making the
> >> >>>>> case, maybe more effectively than many louder voices, that it is
> >> actually
> >> >>>>> possible to impact the problem from the 'ground' up.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Refs.:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The Two Lectures writings cited above should be attached, the
> >> relevant
> >> >>>>> section is page 11 of the PDF, (Pg. 96 of the text.)
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Also attached: Chandra Kumar, ?Foucault, Disciplinary Power, and
> the
> >> >>>>> 'Decentering' of Political Thought, A Marxian View? 2009
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On the question of how 'necessary' private property might be. I'd
> >> also
> >> >>>>> be interested if anyone could present some sort of model of
> >> organization/non
> >> >>>>> organization and argue how it might scale, while avoiding the well
> >> known
> >> >>>>> pitfalls of the past. Malcolm X once said: ?Revolution has never
> >> been about
> >> >>>>> a cup of coffee at a lunch counter; Its about land....?  As long
> as
> >> there
> >> >>>>> are hierarchies, there generally have to be a boundaries, literal
> or
> >> >>>>> otherwise, almost by default.  (typically starting with the
> >> protection of
> >> >>>>> children...)
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Also might say that, at least in some measure, it is the very
> >> >>>>> particular position of specialization that confers a certain
> >> 'comfort'
> >> >>>>> v.a.v.  decision making. Not sure how long the list would be of
> >> people would
> >> >>>>> feel comfortable spontaneously making the same decision. But at
> the
> >> same
> >> >>>>> time, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Hierarchies
> >> have an
> >> >>>>> upside, (if they are transparent and accountable...couple of big
> >> if's...'--)
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ron.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 12:43 PM, margaretha haughwout <
> >> >>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com<
> http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> dear ron & rachel,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> absolutely - break the protocols! ha. we'll have moderators every
> >> two
> >> >>>>>> weeks who will introduce a topic, a problem, an assertion, or a
> >> solution for
> >> >>>>>> the list. they hopefully inspire conversation and debate with the
> >> intention
> >> >>>>>> of deepening our sense of what are the possible and ethical steps
> >> we can
> >> >>>>>> take to move into a regenerative world... jay rosenberg and i
> will
> >> put
> >> >>>>>> forward some stories in the next couple of days about the fence
> >> line at
> >> >>>>>> hayes valley farm, about how we find heroin needles in our
> broccoli
> >> plants,
> >> >>>>>> and the reach of the decisions we make about that fence.... we're
> >> looking
> >> >>>>>> forward to your engagement!
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> that said spontaneous conversations around chapter fourteen
> topics
> >> on
> >> >>>>>> this list are very welcome also!
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> in regards to your the topics you raise -
> >> >>>>>> a) how is permaculture an "acquittal of Foucault" ? wondering
> what
> >> >>>>>> texts of foucault you could quote or refer us to here.
> >> >>>>>> b) i want to challenge the thinking that there must be land
> >> ownership.
> >> >>>>>> enclosure <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure> seems to me
> to
> >> be
> >> >>>>>> one of the most damaging movements in the western world. what if
> we
> >> >>>>>> unraveled the idea of property. how could we begin to do this?
> >> perhaps to
> >> >>>>>> show how much more fun it is to share land, to close loops in
> empty
> >> lots,
> >> >>>>>> share yields, invite folks into your backyard, etc. slow and
> steady
> >> >>>>>> solutions.
> >> >>>>>> c) permaculture, being in part the reinvigoration of ecological
> >> >>>>>> systems through feedback and "closing loops" is also geared
> toward
> >> making
> >> >>>>>> food forests, flourishing systems that also produce yields. the
> >> idea is that
> >> >>>>>> these food forests, as opposed to current "top down" agricultural
> >> practices,
> >> >>>>>> require very little inputs. in turn the yield also is more
> diverse
> >> and more
> >> >>>>>> abundant (compare an acre of food forest to an acre of corn...).
> >> this is to
> >> >>>>>> say yes, i think we can still have dentists. but the impetus
> >> becomes not
> >> >>>>>> necessarily one of survival (must have a job to survive) but one
> of
> >> real
> >> >>>>>> curiosity and desire to contribute to community, health, etc. one
> >> of the
> >> >>>>>> questions becomes: if you have food, community and shelter, what
> do
> >> you want
> >> >>>>>> to do for your community, rather than what do you have to do. i
> am
> >> hesitant
> >> >>>>>> to come up with state, top down rules and laws to make examples
> of
> >> how this
> >> >>>>>> is possible - maybe someone can step in here to fill in some of
> the
> >> blanks.
> >> >>>>>> i'd love to hear an anarchist perspective on how people self
> >> organize...
> >> >>>>>> because it is an issue of self organization. i don't see how self
> >> >>>>>> organization is possible if we put a price on land, and people
> own
> >> it. in
> >> >>>>>> one scenario we act in service to land and in another we act in
> >> service to
> >> >>>>>> the wealthy, the dollar.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> i can speak a little to self organization (bottom up models)
> >> through
> >> >>>>>> what i've seen at hayes valley farm in this regard. i've seen
> >> people, myself
> >> >>>>>> included, first come on the farm and say "look i have this
> >> specialty that is
> >> >>>>>> of value!" "you need me because of my specialty!" what i've
> noticed
> >> over
> >> >>>>>> time is that, while people still have specializations, we all
> also
> >> find
> >> >>>>>> great satisfaction from dedicating at least part of our time to
> the
> >> needs of
> >> >>>>>> the moment, and the more mundane needs of the farm. it's an
> >> interesting
> >> >>>>>> transition to note: the dominant culture tells us we are not
> >> valuable to
> >> >>>>>> others unless we have a specialty, but on the farm, where the
> >> orientation is
> >> >>>>>> more cooperative, we are valued not just for a specialty we may
> >> have, but
> >> >>>>>> also for our responsiveness to the needs of the moment, for our
> >> ability to
> >> >>>>>> work together, do at least some mundane tasks, etc. etc. most of
> my
> >> time
> >> >>>>>> these days in spent in the greenhouse and in research, but the
> >> other day i
> >> >>>>>> walked by the front gate and noticed it needed some attention, so
> i
> >> planted
> >> >>>>>> some trees, comfrey and clover. i think when the orientation is
> >> toward self
> >> >>>>>> organization, we have a more nuanced responsiveness that allows
> for
> >> >>>>>> specialization (into dentistry, for example) but also that allows
> >> for deep
> >> >>>>>> pleasure in responding to the needs of nature, self, and
> >> community...
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> much more can be said here. in my opinion these questions dive to
> >> the
> >> >>>>>> heart of how we get from here to there.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> my friend aimee reminded me of permaculture principle #4
> yesterday:
> >> "accept
> >> >>>>>> feedback and apply self regulation<
> >> http://permacultureprinciples.com/principle_4.php>
> >> >>>>>> "
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> all the best,
> >> >>>>>> /m
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 9:31 AM, ron stanford <
> rstan1122 at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=rstan1122@gmail.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> realized that might have sounded like Shakespeare championed
> Jay,
> >> the
> >> >>>>>>> bastard...not quite was i was thinking, although Shakespeare  no
> >> doubt would
> >> >>>>>>> have loved jay, i don't think he's actually a bastard, either
> >> literally or
> >> >>>>>>> figuratively...the long lost thought there was more an
> off-handed
> >> defense of
> >> >>>>>>> 'non-pedigree' thinking...(really...(sic...))...
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <
> >> rachel at rabe.org <http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >> >>>>>>> > wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Not quite sure what protocols you might have breeched...  I
> found
> >> >>>>>>>> your question intriguing because I've wondered about that
> >> myself.  It seems
> >> >>>>>>>> that not everyone might become a successful farmer... Given our
> >> knowledge of
> >> >>>>>>>> where markets can lead - at least the unregulated kinds - maybe
> >> exchange
> >> >>>>>>>> might be better.  Historically, when buyer and seller haggled
> >> directly,
> >> >>>>>>>> prices tended to be fairer than now when most of the money I
> pay
> >> for
> >> >>>>>>>> athletic shoes (for example) goes into the pockets of the CEO
> of
> >> [fill in
> >> >>>>>>>> your least favorite shoe company].  I can't haggle - and
> neither
> >> can the
> >> >>>>>>>> person ask for higher wages.   Of course, there remain other
> >> >>>>>>>> power-differentials to watch out for in 1-on-1 markets.  I am
> >> sure that the
> >> >>>>>>>> craftsperson didn't feel as comfortable setting a price for a
> >> >>>>>>>> nobleperson...
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Rachel
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, ron stanford wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> not quite sure how the idea exchange here is supposed to work,
> >> but
> >> >>>>>>>> just diving in: (as a relative neophyte), marvelously impressed
> >> by the
> >> >>>>>>>> gravity of fukuoka, the look of his 'farm', the food forest
> >> concept, seed
> >> >>>>>>>> balls, etc.  My first question v.a.v. discussion would be the
> >> macro level
> >> >>>>>>>> implications of.traditional property rights and markets/
> exchange
> >> of
> >> >>>>>>>> 'surplus'.  Recognizing that permaculture, (seems to me), is
> >> something,
> >> >>>>>>>> (literally), of a ground up' concept, (the best e.g. acquittal
> of
> >> Foucault
> >> >>>>>>>> i've personally encountered...), i wonder about the convergence
> >> of
> >> >>>>>>>> enlightened 'ground up' food production and the perhaps not so
> >> comfortable
> >> >>>>>>>> atrophy of top down-large scale production/distribution models.
> >> >>>>>>>> In the new model, if one is not specifically a grower, or one
> in
> >> >>>>>>>> possession of land, (maybe a dedicated painter/writer/old
> school
> >> doctor,
> >> >>>>>>>> etc.), is there the comfortable possibility of making one's
> >> 'specialized'
> >> >>>>>>>> way, without being a 'farmer' oneself, (and not relying on
> >> charity, strictly
> >> >>>>>>>> speaking...), that is, an exchange, a market, where
> >> services/goods/produce
> >> >>>>>>>> can be priced?
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> have no doubt breeched any number of protocols, but...testing,
> >> >>>>>>>> testing...is this thing on...? ...'--)
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> ron.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Jay <protojay at gmail.com<
> http://mc/compose?to=protojay@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Website: onestrawrevolution.net
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Chapter 14 discussion invite
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on
> Kickstarter!
> >> >>>>>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> >> >>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> >> >>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
> >> >>>>>> Communications 151
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> chapter fourteen<
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >
> >> >>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
> >> >>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
> >> >>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com<
> http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> sf urban ag alliance @ sfuaa.org
> >> >>>> movie and blog @ insearchofgoodfood.org
> >> >>>> community farm @ www.alemanyfarm.org
> >> >>>> permaculty @ www.permaculture-sf.org
> >> >>>> newspaper @
> >> >>>>
> http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/
> >> >>>> personal music @ www.myspace.com/ammra
> >> >>>> people people @www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>  _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
> >> >>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> >> >>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> >> >>> University of California Santa Cruz
> >> >>> Communications 151
> >> >>>
> >> >>> chapter fourteen<
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >
> >> >>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
> >> >>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I am best contacted by email:
> >> >>> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com
> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> sf urban ag alliance @ sfuaa.org
> >> >> movie and blog @ insearchofgoodfood.org
> >> >> community farm @ www.alemanyfarm.org
> >> >> permaculty @ www.permaculture-sf.org
> >> >> newspaper @
> >> >> http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/
> >> >> personal music @ www.myspace.com/ammra
> >> >> people people @www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
> >> > http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
> >> >
> >> > Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> >> > http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
> >> >
> >> > Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> >> > University of California Santa Cruz
> >> > Communications 151
> >> >
> >> > chapter fourteen<
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >
> >> > http://www.beforebefore.net/
> >> > http://www.bitterpattern.net/
> >> >
> >> > I am best contacted by email:
> >> > xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<
> http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net
> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >> >
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