[Chapter_Fourteen] chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net - money, capitalism

Wed Nov 10 20:20:12 PST 2010

-big ole potential thread there with the life and death histories of various
'civilizations'/civic models...(the neanderthals lasted a relatively long
time too...)
-did want to challenge a bit the idea that money in europe somehow started
in the 1800's...this is true of paper currency as we know it, but markets
and 'currency' in one form or another have been around for as long as human
civilization...commodities exchanges, weights and measures, taxes, debt,
legal contracts, etc. go back at least to the iron age,  j.c. throwing the
'money' changers out of the temple...roman coin...even stock exchanges:
government securities were traded in 13th century france...markets generally
have to be actively restrained to be kept out of play...

r.
(landscape urbanist, (architecture-industrial design))
M. Arch. (Berkeley), B.A. Linguistics, (U. MD)

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Chris G <galanis_chris at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> In reply to Jason's post regarding capitalism;
>
> I agree with your initial argument, which is that capitalism itself is not
> ultimately the physical manifestation of evil which plagues the world. It's
> impossible to single out any one structure, idea, person, or system to
> represent all the ills of the world, and I'm glad that this fact is not
> simply being glossed over in this very interesting discussion.
>
> And, to address certain statements which you made and offer further
> questions:
>
> * "All your downtime to think about Foucault and such is because someone
> somewhere
> else is using their labor to support you. Capitalism is the best model
> economists know of that supports creativity and progress."*
> *
> *
> *Oh my!  I wish i lived in the world you live in.  I'm dying to know where
> all this "downtime" which was promised us has gone to. Supposedly much
> innovation since the 18th century was intended to allow us to enjoy more
> time for leisure and less time "working." Well, I look around me, and I
> certainly don't see carefree people of leisure. Ironically, in the case of
> video games, when people "do" have "free time" they choose to spend hours
> playing task based games which are essentially "work" such as when you have
> to get the flame-sword, then bring it to GolgaWorld, where you acquire a
> silver amulet, which you then have to trade for blahblah..etc...it seems to
> me that capitalism is not at all in the business of affording leisure time,
> but rather in making it impossible for us to actually have any down time,
> due to the producer/consumer paradigm many have bought into.*
> *
> *
> *As well, I question what one might see as "creativity" and "progress." On
> the one hand, creating all these industrial machines in the past 100-200
> years could be seen as incredibly creative. And, it could be argued that
> creating all these machines out of non-renweable materials which depend on a
> substance as destructive as oil - well, that's actually pretty idiotic and
> short-sighted in the end. *
> *
> *
> *I was reading something in a book on the Anasazi of the Southwest U.S.
> where the author was explaining how the early Anasazi sometimes didn't
> change a design or technology for thousands and thousands of years, such as
> the stone cutting tools they used. This was explained as a "lack of
> innovation and progress" compared to the height of Anasazi culture and the
> phenomenon of Chaco Canyon where incredible leaps of technology and
> knowledge were made in the span of a few hundred years. However. It doesn't
> take into account that the "primitive" culture which didn't "progress"
> managed to do just fine for thousands and thousands of years. Compare this
> to the period of great progress, where the culture utterly collapsed within
> a few hundred years.*
> *
> *
> *I think this is where all modern economic models fail miserably, due to
> their mind-numbing inability to imagine models which are sustainable in the
> long term. Which is what we're talking about I think...*
> *
> *
> *"Private property"
> It is generally accepted that without private property there can be no
> money
> creation. We may fantasize about a world without money but I just don't see
> it happening soon.*
> *
> *
> *I would like to offer up the fact that in most of Europe, there was no
> such thing as money up until the 1800's. To put this into context, out of
> the estimated 200,000 years of the history of our species, 199,800 years of
> it went along fine without money. Perhaps it really isn't so hard to imagine
> a world without money after all?*
> *
> *
> *thanks all again for some very interesting reading. I also appreciate
> some of you mentioning where you're coming from and what your area of
> interest/research is. As for myself, i'm doing an MFA in Art & Ecology at
> UNM in albuquerque.*
> *
> *
> *    - chris galanis
> *
> --- On *Wed, 11/10/10,
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request at lists.beforebefore.net>* wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Chapter 14 (Jason Hiller)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:46:51 -0800
> From: Jason Hiller <jdhiller at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=jdhiller@gmail.com>
> >
> To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures
>     intersect"    <
> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Chapter 14
> Message-ID:
>     <AANLkTi=2VLAE0ELqF-1jvHa-+3gFNCD4EDew8GCurJLr at mail.gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=3gFNCD4EDew8GCurJLr@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Wow, I just skimmed the thread... I'll try to work in a few of my thoughts
> and hopefully do it briefly.
>
> *"is permaculture as a movement moving fast enough to reach enough people
> and turn back the devastation of capitalism?"*
>
> I probably stand alone in saying that capitalism is not devastating. I've
> heard so many speak so ill of it but I think they really are referring to
> other things, like greed and corruption. You may say those are inherent
> into
> capitalism but I say they are more inherent to government. The fact of
> capitalism is that people require "pins". Adam Smith gave us a great story
> about why one person trying to make pins would be hugely unsuccessful. Mine
> and refine your metal, extrude it into shape, attach the heads, etc etc.
> You'd be lucky to average a few pins a month and imagine how long it would
> take to get a nice collection of pins such that you can start your sewing
> for the clothes you will want. The thing about economics is that it is the
> study (or some say science) of how to organize labor. The principle of
> profit is usually what gets attacked in capitalism but reserve judgment on
> that part just yet- since that is the part most interested in government as
> well.
>
> So if instead you focus your energy into just assemble the 'head' onto pins
> you could probably knock out many more... I can pull up the Smith passage
> later for reference since I'm just working from memory. But you understand
> the point is that the mass of people who demand pins can now get as many
> pins as they need because they aren't making them themselves. Of course the
> pinmaker industry is happy because those people get to support the clothing
> makers who need the pins and they don't need to make the clothes
> themselves.
>
>
> Capitalism is the reason why you are on a computer with a highly advanced
> form of communication- compared to how people historically communicated.
> All
> your downtime to think about Foucault and such is because someone somewhere
> else is using their labor to support you. Capitalism is the best model
> economists know of that supports creativity and progress. Maybe you don't
> like those things and that's cool too. We have Socialistic aspects to our
> capitalistic system that will support you too.
>
> The profit to corruption pathway is probably what you find so devastating.
> I'd like to hear some specific examples of what is devastating.
>
> "Private property"
> It is generally accepted that without private property there can be no
> money
> creation. We may fantasize about a world without money but I just don't see
> it happening soon. I think a revision of economic principles is certainly
> in
> order but private property is something people fight wars over and it would
> come to that if there were a serious movement to eliminate private
> property.
>
>
> So,
> what do I do since I acknowledge imbalance in the system? I don't spend
> money where it doesn't need to go. I pay cash whenever possible. I support
> local economies and generally take all my political issues and 'what's
> wrong
> with the world' issues and direct them towards big business. We really need
> to organize our efforts against the billion dollar profit machines. DO you
> know General Motors is reporting TWO BILLION DOLLARS of profit for the
> THIRD
> QUARTER of this year? That is 3 months folks.. 3 fucking months and 2
> billion. Don't you recall that General Motors went bankrupt? The stock went
> to ZERO and the entire company was bankrupt.. meaning insolvent. That was a
> little more than a year ago. This makes my skin crawl and blood boil.
> Corruption allowed this to happen and government allowed this to happen, it
> was not capitalism. There should be no such company and they certainly
> should be reporting obscene profit. Sorry, I get excited about these
> things.
> IF you really want to hear me curse let's talk about Goldman Sachs. My
> stomach turns to a pit of raging fire on the thought of investment bankers.
> Again- it is government that has failed us, not capitalism.
>
> Okay, sorry if I glossed over some stuff or didn't fully acknowledge any
> other comments, there is just so much here!
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:06 PM, margaretha haughwout <
> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > is permaculture as a movement moving fast enough to reach enough people
> and
> > turn back the devastation of capitalism? no, probably not.
> > should we do it anyway? yes, because nothing is for certain.
> > time isn't as absolute as it seems, so maybe we can slow it down by
> > planting food on a freeway for example.
> >
> > should we have a master plan beyond taking a PDC or studying some other
> > 10000-year old technology and implementing the principles? i vote no. i
> am
> > very tired of masters. and each local circumstance requires it's own
> > observation and interaction.
> >
> > all best,
> > /m
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Antonio Roman-Alcala <
> > antidogmatist at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=antidogmatist@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >> to clarify my last post:
> >> i didn't mean to imply that horizontal, rhizomatic, network (pick your
> >> metaphor!) structures of organizations are inherently ineffective or
> faulty,
> >> but rather that I am increasingly aware of a tendency on the left,
> permie,
> >> etc circles to idealize these structures as more "correct". obviously
> there
> >> are so many ways to build a garden, and so many ways to create change.
> our
> >> challenge, i believe, is to analytically and critically discern what
> works
> >> for us in our particular conditions.
> >>
> >> Metaphors from nature as applied social organization are tricky, though
> >> they may be useful at times. But personally I try to steer clear from
> "this
> >> is true in nature" therefore "this is how we should organize". Patterns
> are
> >> patterns, and should be observed, not used as a basis for dogma. (i'm
> not
> >> accusing anyone on this thread of that--just pointing out a pattern I've
> >> seen, and participated in!)
> >>
> >> all the best,
> >> antonio
> >>
> >> p.s. i love the "reverse hierarchy" model...this is exactly what modern
> >> nation state governments have ass backwards: local communities are
> beholden
> >> to decisions made on successively larger levels, reducing
> accountability,
> >> transparency, and appropriateness to place. double agree with the last
> >> margaretha's paragraph about our work's focus:  What I would describe as
> >> being broadly concerned with strengthening our communities' nodes, hubs,
> and
> >> links, while somehow not ignoring the equally important dismantling (or
> >> making obsolete?) of the current structures/networks of destructive
> power.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:46 AM, margaretha haughwout <
> >> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> dear ron, antonio, rachel and all --
> >>>
> >>> many interesting threads through the conversation here. ron, thanks so
> >>> much for starting the conversation; it seems a vital one to begin at
> the
> >>> launch of this new list -- how effective is permaculture at enacting
> real
> >>> change?
> >>>
> >>> one thing i always found sort of frustrating with the foucault i've
> read
> >>> is his avoidance of a clear definition of power. he talks about it all
> the
> >>> time but rarely defines it. the most i can get for a definition out of
> >>> discipline and punish (the whole book can be found here<
> http://aaaaarg.org/text/15247/discipline-and-punish-birth-prison>- just
> register!)  is something along the lines that power is the ability to
> >>> exert force. the ability to exert force via a hierarchical king or
> >>> hierarchical nation state needs no long explication as to its
> devastation.
> >>> if we were to toss deleuze (hardt and negri too?) into the mix (i know
> i
> >>> know, so predictable), we'd be able to think broadly about the double
> >>> death-like nature of fixed, organizations, of solidified power but also
> to
> >>> argue that the only way out of hierarchy + capitalism is a rhizomatic
> ever
> >>> multiplying network, where relations and cross pollinations are made
> >>> spontaneously and across species. in permaculture terms i think this
> would
> >>> be adding more, diverse life to problems (integrating rather than
> >>> segregating), closing loops, valuing diversity. and yes thanks to
> rachel for
> >>> that keeper of a pdf - finding the leverage points in the system....
> >>>
> >>> there are many things i agree with in gladwell's article you mention
> >>> above, antonio. i have the same criticism of clay shirky (though i wish
> >>> gladwell had been more explicit about the implicit racism shirky's
> social
> >>> media story) and of social media. however there are lots of different
> kind
> >>> of networks -- centralized networks (which may or may not be the same
> as top
> >>> down hierarchies), decentralized networks, and distributed networks
> being 3
> >>> main kinds -- and i question whether it is a simply matter of vertical
> vs.
> >>> lateral. for instance, one functioning model for land stewardship for
> >>> indigenous tribes in maine (among other places) is a reverse hierarchy,
> >>> where the people living closest to the land have ultimate veto power.
> this
> >>> is in effect still a centralized network where leaders of nations
> petition
> >>> tribes who petition clans who petition families who petition women (the
> >>> closest to the land) - who then say yea or nay. i think we need a more
> >>> coherent analysis of networks. there are strong tie networks and weak
> tie
> >>> networks that can apply to any of the types described above; no doubt
> the
> >>> internet supplies an abundance of weak ties - weak ties only to other
> humans
> >>> with the exception of the occasional lolcat.
> >>>
> >>> the water wars of bolivia, i think, are a good example of a successful
> >>> decentralized resistance.
> >>>
> >>> i also think it is a matter of who tells the history. we all know that
> >>> hierarchies align histories with powerful central figures, while the
> people,
> >>> the connections between people, and between people and place, go
> >>> unrecognized.
> >>>
> >>> no doubt hierarchy combined with capitalism is a positive feedback loop
> >>> that seems to eat every opposition and grow from it. but i do think
> there
> >>> are cracks in the system. an economic system based on profit cannot
> continue
> >>> indefinitely. i would also assert that power is in fact afraid of
> networks.
> >>> take the virus, for example; both computer viruses and SARS travel
> networks
> >>> (be it the internet or airlines), and this terrifies. also regardless
> of
> >>> whether al qaeda actually was a decentralized network or a hierarchy,
> the
> >>> narrative sold to the american public is that al qaeda cells are
> >>> distributed, can exist independently of each other - therefore scary!
> >>>
> >>> i think the real challenge is to make our networks thick and full of
> >>> trust. thick with people and community as well as plants and animals.
> if we
> >>> are tied to place as closely as we are to our children, lovers or our
> >>> friends, we fight for them. so, it is not just a matter of making a
> backyard
> >>> garden, but to make gardens with others in empty lots, toss seed bombs,
> and
> >>> engage the marginal. it is also a matter of closing loops - feed off of
> the
> >>> waste that capitalism outpours, turn it all into nutrient and grow food
> from
> >>> its disaster. is it possible to turn the feedback loop around?
> undoubtedly,
> >>> power is not going to give up without a fight, and as derrick jensen so
> >>> convincingly argues, we need each of us to figure out when, where and
> how we
> >>> draw the line.
> >>>
> >>> /m
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <rachel at rabe.org<http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> There was an interesting (and somewhat depressing/discouraging)
> >>>> interview with Heather Rogers on Against the Grain a few weeks ago who
> was
> >>>> talking exactly about the co-option of alternative ways of being by
> the
> >>>> mainstream capitalist system.  See
> >>>>
> http://www.againstthegrain.org/program/342/id/351519/mon-8-30-10-green-panaceas
> .
> >>>>  BUT as I don't see one thing that would bring the whole system down
> (well,
> >>>> with the except of running out of oil but even that doesn't seem to
> stop the
> >>>> system, at least not yet), I think we just have to keep trying from as
> many
> >>>> angles as we can think of.  Maybe there are leverage points that we
> hit by
> >>>> accident or design that can change things more dramatically (
> >>>> http://www.sustainer.org/?page_id=106).  Also, I think it's important
> >>>> to show that alternatives are possible because one counter-argument
> that is
> >>>> often hurled at people suggesting alternatives is the "it's not
> possible"
> >>>> mantra.  If we can point to place where it is done that
> counter-argument
> >>>> implodes...
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for sending the two Foucault pieces, Ron!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Antonio Roman-Alcala wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> A few brief comments:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) My entrance into the world of permaculture was surely rooted in
> just
> >>>> this foucault-style description of means of challenging power (though
> I've
> >>>> never read him of course). But as I've spent time doing this work, I
> am
> >>>> extremely skeptical about its ability to fundamentally alter the
> conditions
> >>>> of production (food or otherwise) or address longstanding iniquities,
> at
> >>>> least in any relatively quick timespan (50-100 years). The reasons for
> this
> >>>> are manifold, but one major aspect is that the capitalist system has a
> >>>> powerful drive to re-incorporate critique into its functions and
> >>>> justifications for its continued existence. (see "The New Spirit of
> >>>> Capitalism" by Luc Boltanski and Eve Chiapello). Another critique I'm
> >>>> finding more and more persuasive is that the network, horizontal mode
> of
> >>>> organization (while it has incredible value in many respects) is not
> >>>> necessary conducive to mass culture change in a society where so many
> of the
> >>>> links in that network are tenuous or weak (see Malcolm Gladwell's
> >>>> article<
> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=1>on
> Twitter: I don't agree with everything he says but its something to
> >>>> consider). Effective counter-power may require more resources and
> >>>> organization than the network permaculturists/anti-capitalists/etc
> currently
> >>>> manifest. I don't know.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) Re: specialization: this is a distinct outgrowth of university
> system
> >>>> expansion in the US in the late 19th, early 20th century. Before that,
> most
> >>>> people were autodidacts and "experts" (or at least dabblers) in all
> sorts of
> >>>> fields of inquiry (both upper class officially "educated" and
> >>>> homesteader/farmer alike). I'd really like to see us promoting a
> vision of a
> >>>> new world where we can have both the benefits of specialist knowledge
> >>>> production and see a generalization of the population's understanding
> of the
> >>>> world and (the way I fantasize about my own future) even an ability to
> make
> >>>> a living from multiple interests/vocations: farming/gardening/the
> production
> >>>> of basic needs as one aspect that a majority of folks are involved in.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) Re: land question. Also, I'm not sure it's "the solution", but it's
> >>>> interesting to consider, as a post-capitalist land ownership model to
> pursue
> >>>> (if we can't forsee a return to non-ownership of land, aka full
> commons):
> >>>> Henry George and his "single land tax". just google it, pretty easy to
> find
> >>>> info.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Antonio
> >>>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 8:57 PM, ron stanford <rstan1122 at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=rstan1122@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> some foucault and tangential permaculture...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The analysis of power *?should not concern itself with the regulated
> >>>>> and legitimate forms of power in their central locations', **but
> **'with
> >>>>> power at its extremities, in its ultimate destinations, with those
> points
> >>>>> where it becomes capillary...?** **?...the point where power
> surmounts
> >>>>> the rules of right which organize and delimit it, and extends itself
> beyond
> >>>>> them...?*
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *p.96 "Two Lectures." Power / Knowledge: Selected Interviews and
> Other
> >>>>> Writings, 1972-1977. Ed.*
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *Colin Gordon. Brighton: Harvester, 1980.*
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This 'de-centered' interpretation of power and its potential
> pragmatic
> >>>>> implications, (of which I had personally been generally skeptical),
> is what
> >>>>> I was referring to in offering 'Permaculture' as a kind of qualified,
> >>>>> (obviously 'minimalizing'), 'acquittal' of Foucault. While he himself
> did
> >>>>> not focus on pragmatist 'action' per se, my point would be that as
> one does
> >>>>> look at Permaculture based 'action', (essntially building-rebuilding
> >>>>> sustainable/resilient ecologies from the ground up), Foucault's
> conceptual
> >>>>> formation presents an imageable overlay on which to map the
> >>>>> coherence/co-adherents of that action as influence and organizational
> >>>>> transformation moves back *up* the scale.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The example we're all somewhat involved in would obviously be this
> >>>>> broad question of transforming food production/land use
> >>>>> patterns-distribution networks-consumption patterns. At one end of
> the scale
> >>>>> there might be agribusiness-trade regimes-federal
> subsidies-commodities
> >>>>> trading/global shipping-big box distribution/advertising-predatory
> >>>>> pricing...*(collectively represented as juridicial or monarchic power
> >>>>> in the liberal and marxist models)*. But it is the other end of the
> >>>>> scale, at the most discrete level, *the 'capillary' level*, where
> >>>>> Foucault's model suggests the power actually manifests itself, in
> what you
> >>>>> put into your mouth on a daily basis, in the not so subtle coercion
> to
> >>>>> 'super size', to accept the putative convenience the system offers,
> to 'pay
> >>>>> no attention to the infrastructure behind the 'package', etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Conventional 'structuralist' thinking, (simplified into clich?, (and
> I
> >>>>> still consider myself to be something of a structuralist...), might
> argue
> >>>>> that one person's organic garden or individual food choices cannot
> really
> >>>>> impact such a large scale problem; That It must be attacked closer to
> the
> >>>>> multiple heads, at the level of trade accords and protocols, perhaps
> with
> >>>>> direct action against the companies/the W.T.O., better mass
> organizing
> >>>>> strategies, mass boycotts, etc...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Permaculture, it seems to me,(without any necessity for discarding
> >>>>> other transformational strategies), has a relatively inspiring track
> record
> >>>>> of more or less *doing* the solution, and allowing the collective
> >>>>> 'power' of the idea to accumulate discretely. And in that way, making
> the
> >>>>> case, maybe more effectively than many louder voices, that it is
> actually
> >>>>> possible to impact the problem from the 'ground' up.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Refs.:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Two Lectures writings cited above should be attached, the
> relevant
> >>>>> section is page 11 of the PDF, (Pg. 96 of the text.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also attached: Chandra Kumar, ?Foucault, Disciplinary Power, and the
> >>>>> 'Decentering' of Political Thought, A Marxian View? 2009
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On the question of how 'necessary' private property might be. I'd
> also
> >>>>> be interested if anyone could present some sort of model of
> organization/non
> >>>>> organization and argue how it might scale, while avoiding the well
> known
> >>>>> pitfalls of the past. Malcolm X once said: ?Revolution has never been
> about
> >>>>> a cup of coffee at a lunch counter; Its about land....?  As long as
> there
> >>>>> are hierarchies, there generally have to be a boundaries, literal or
> >>>>> otherwise, almost by default.  (typically starting with the
> protection of
> >>>>> children...)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also might say that, at least in some measure, it is the very
> >>>>> particular position of specialization that confers a certain
> 'comfort'
> >>>>> v.a.v.  decision making. Not sure how long the list would be of
> people would
> >>>>> feel comfortable spontaneously making the same decision. But at the
> same
> >>>>> time, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Hierarchies have
> an
> >>>>> upside, (if they are transparent and accountable...couple of big
> if's...'--)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ron.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 12:43 PM, margaretha haughwout <
> >>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> dear ron & rachel,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> absolutely - break the protocols! ha. we'll have moderators every
> two
> >>>>>> weeks who will introduce a topic, a problem, an assertion, or a
> solution for
> >>>>>> the list. they hopefully inspire conversation and debate with the
> intention
> >>>>>> of deepening our sense of what are the possible and ethical steps we
> can
> >>>>>> take to move into a regenerative world... jay rosenberg and i will
> put
> >>>>>> forward some stories in the next couple of days about the fence line
> at
> >>>>>> hayes valley farm, about how we find heroin needles in our broccoli
> plants,
> >>>>>> and the reach of the decisions we make about that fence.... we're
> looking
> >>>>>> forward to your engagement!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> that said spontaneous conversations around chapter fourteen topics
> on
> >>>>>> this list are very welcome also!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> in regards to your the topics you raise -
> >>>>>> a) how is permaculture an "acquittal of Foucault" ? wondering what
> >>>>>> texts of foucault you could quote or refer us to here.
> >>>>>> b) i want to challenge the thinking that there must be land
> ownership.
> >>>>>> enclosure <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure> seems to me to
> be
> >>>>>> one of the most damaging movements in the western world. what if we
> >>>>>> unraveled the idea of property. how could we begin to do this?
> perhaps to
> >>>>>> show how much more fun it is to share land, to close loops in empty
> lots,
> >>>>>> share yields, invite folks into your backyard, etc. slow and steady
> >>>>>> solutions.
> >>>>>> c) permaculture, being in part the reinvigoration of ecological
> >>>>>> systems through feedback and "closing loops" is also geared toward
> making
> >>>>>> food forests, flourishing systems that also produce yields. the idea
> is that
> >>>>>> these food forests, as opposed to current "top down" agricultural
> practices,
> >>>>>> require very little inputs. in turn the yield also is more diverse
> and more
> >>>>>> abundant (compare an acre of food forest to an acre of corn...).
> this is to
> >>>>>> say yes, i think we can still have dentists. but the impetus becomes
> not
> >>>>>> necessarily one of survival (must have a job to survive) but one of
> real
> >>>>>> curiosity and desire to contribute to community, health, etc. one of
> the
> >>>>>> questions becomes: if you have food, community and shelter, what do
> you want
> >>>>>> to do for your community, rather than what do you have to do. i am
> hesitant
> >>>>>> to come up with state, top down rules and laws to make examples of
> how this
> >>>>>> is possible - maybe someone can step in here to fill in some of the
> blanks.
> >>>>>> i'd love to hear an anarchist perspective on how people self
> organize...
> >>>>>> because it is an issue of self organization. i don't see how self
> >>>>>> organization is possible if we put a price on land, and people own
> it. in
> >>>>>> one scenario we act in service to land and in another we act in
> service to
> >>>>>> the wealthy, the dollar.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> i can speak a little to self organization (bottom up models) through
> >>>>>> what i've seen at hayes valley farm in this regard. i've seen
> people, myself
> >>>>>> included, first come on the farm and say "look i have this specialty
> that is
> >>>>>> of value!" "you need me because of my specialty!" what i've noticed
> over
> >>>>>> time is that, while people still have specializations, we all also
> find
> >>>>>> great satisfaction from dedicating at least part of our time to the
> needs of
> >>>>>> the moment, and the more mundane needs of the farm. it's an
> interesting
> >>>>>> transition to note: the dominant culture tells us we are not
> valuable to
> >>>>>> others unless we have a specialty, but on the farm, where the
> orientation is
> >>>>>> more cooperative, we are valued not just for a specialty we may
> have, but
> >>>>>> also for our responsiveness to the needs of the moment, for our
> ability to
> >>>>>> work together, do at least some mundane tasks, etc. etc. most of my
> time
> >>>>>> these days in spent in the greenhouse and in research, but the other
> day i
> >>>>>> walked by the front gate and noticed it needed some attention, so i
> planted
> >>>>>> some trees, comfrey and clover. i think when the orientation is
> toward self
> >>>>>> organization, we have a more nuanced responsiveness that allows for
> >>>>>> specialization (into dentistry, for example) but also that allows
> for deep
> >>>>>> pleasure in responding to the needs of nature, self, and
> community...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> much more can be said here. in my opinion these questions dive to
> the
> >>>>>> heart of how we get from here to there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> my friend aimee reminded me of permaculture principle #4 yesterday:
> "accept
> >>>>>> feedback and apply self regulation<
> http://permacultureprinciples.com/principle_4.php>
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> all the best,
> >>>>>> /m
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 9:31 AM, ron stanford <rstan1122 at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=rstan1122@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> realized that might have sounded like Shakespeare championed Jay,
> the
> >>>>>>> bastard...not quite was i was thinking, although Shakespeare  no
> doubt would
> >>>>>>> have loved jay, i don't think he's actually a bastard, either
> literally or
> >>>>>>> figuratively...the long lost thought there was more an off-handed
> defense of
> >>>>>>> 'non-pedigree' thinking...(really...(sic...))...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <
> rachel at rabe.org <http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org>
> >>>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not quite sure what protocols you might have breeched...  I found
> >>>>>>>> your question intriguing because I've wondered about that myself.
> It seems
> >>>>>>>> that not everyone might become a successful farmer... Given our
> knowledge of
> >>>>>>>> where markets can lead - at least the unregulated kinds - maybe
> exchange
> >>>>>>>> might be better.  Historically, when buyer and seller haggled
> directly,
> >>>>>>>> prices tended to be fairer than now when most of the money I pay
> for
> >>>>>>>> athletic shoes (for example) goes into the pockets of the CEO of
> [fill in
> >>>>>>>> your least favorite shoe company].  I can't haggle - and neither
> can the
> >>>>>>>> person ask for higher wages.   Of course, there remain other
> >>>>>>>> power-differentials to watch out for in 1-on-1 markets.  I am sure
> that the
> >>>>>>>> craftsperson didn't feel as comfortable setting a price for a
> >>>>>>>> nobleperson...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rachel
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, ron stanford wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> not quite sure how the idea exchange here is supposed to work, but
> >>>>>>>> just diving in: (as a relative neophyte), marvelously impressed by
> the
> >>>>>>>> gravity of fukuoka, the look of his 'farm', the food forest
> concept, seed
> >>>>>>>> balls, etc.  My first question v.a.v. discussion would be the
> macro level
> >>>>>>>> implications of.traditional property rights and markets/ exchange
> of
> >>>>>>>> 'surplus'.  Recognizing that permaculture, (seems to me), is
> something,
> >>>>>>>> (literally), of a ground up' concept, (the best e.g. acquittal of
> Foucault
> >>>>>>>> i've personally encountered...), i wonder about the convergence of
> >>>>>>>> enlightened 'ground up' food production and the perhaps not so
> comfortable
> >>>>>>>> atrophy of top down-large scale production/distribution models.
> >>>>>>>> In the new model, if one is not specifically a grower, or one in
> >>>>>>>> possession of land, (maybe a dedicated painter/writer/old school
> doctor,
> >>>>>>>> etc.), is there the comfortable possibility of making one's
> 'specialized'
> >>>>>>>> way, without being a 'farmer' oneself, (and not relying on
> charity, strictly
> >>>>>>>> speaking...), that is, an exchange, a market, where
> services/goods/produce
> >>>>>>>> can be priced?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> have no doubt breeched any number of protocols, but...testing,
> >>>>>>>> testing...is this thing on...? ...'--)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ron.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Jay <protojay at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=protojay@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Website: onestrawrevolution.net
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Chapter 14 discussion invite
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
> >>>>>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> >>>>>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> >>>>>> University of California Santa Cruz
> >>>>>> Communications 151
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> chapter fourteen<
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> >>>>>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
> >>>>>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am best contacted by email:
> >>>>>> xmargarethax at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> sf urban ag alliance @ sfuaa.org
> >>>> movie and blog @ insearchofgoodfood.org
> >>>> community farm @ www.alemanyfarm.org
> >>>> permaculty @ www.permaculture-sf.org
> >>>> newspaper @
> >>>> http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/
> >>>> personal music @ www.myspace.com/ammra
> >>>> people people @www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity
> >>>>
> >>>>  _______________________________________________
> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
> >>> http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
> >>>
> >>> Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> >>> http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
> >>>
> >>> Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> >>> University of California Santa Cruz
> >>> Communications 151
> >>>
> >>> chapter fourteen<
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> >>> http://www.beforebefore.net/
> >>> http://www.bitterpattern.net/
> >>>
> >>> I am best contacted by email:
> >>> xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >>> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> sf urban ag alliance @ sfuaa.org
> >> movie and blog @ insearchofgoodfood.org
> >> community farm @ www.alemanyfarm.org
> >> permaculty @ www.permaculture-sf.org
> >> newspaper @
> >> http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/
> >> personal music @ www.myspace.com/ammra
> >> people people @www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> >> chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >>
> >>
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > ? Spread the word, please help us support the farm on Kickstarter!
> > http://bit.ly/hvf-kickstarter
> >
> > Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm
> > http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/
> >
> > Lecturer, Film and Digital Media
> > University of California Santa Cruz
> > Communications 151
> >
> > chapter fourteen<
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
> > http://www.beforebefore.net/
> > http://www.bitterpattern.net/
> >
> > I am best contacted by email:
> > xmargarethax at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=xmargarethax@gmail.com>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net mailing list
> > chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net at lists.beforebefore.net<http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net>
> >
> >
> http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net
> >
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