<div>one counter view to the notion that all collapse/crisis situations lead to a degeneration of humane action, specifically a degeneration originating in horrors perpetuated by the "common person", is that of Rebecca Solnit in her most recent book "A Paradise Built in Hell".</div>
<div><br>i would definitely recommend it.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Chris G <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:galanis_chris@yahoo.ca">galanis_chris@yahoo.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font:inherit">Hi all - one thing i find fascinating in these discussions is how we construct both past and future utopias based on *extremely* subjective variables. perhaps it's the difficulty in imagining anything outside of a context for which we have experience.which leads me to contemplate exactly what the "goal" of much of our work is. taking even just Rachel and Harshal's messages as examples (both of which resonate with me and i don't mean any disrespect in analyzing them) of assumptions:<br>
<br><span style="font-weight:bold">- all middle class are white</span><br>having spent most of my life in the cities of montreal and toronto, two extremely multicultural cities, the ethnic profile of the middle class has changed tremendously from the 1960's to today. demographically, that shift will only increase over time. at least in urban areas, i imagine the generalizing of
middle-class as "white" is a projection that will likely be less and less accurate in our lifetimes.<br><br><span style="font-weight:bold">- white middle class are the only people with access to backyards</span><br>
again, i see the opposite trend, where people of my generation, no matter the ethnic background, are buying up gaggles of condos on the periphery of inner cities - none of these have backyards. in fact the areas i see that do have gardens in cities i'm familiar with are the older run down neighbourhoods where there is often a large population of recent immigrants. i'm not even going to take new cookie-cutter subdivisions into account because it's my assumption that anyone who wants to live in a suburb is probably not trying to save the planet thru permaculture. rather, i see <a href="http://www.landshare.net/letsgrow" target="_blank">networks like this</a> are probably a better reflection of people's interest in issues of permaculture and social
justice.<br><br><span style="font-weight:bold">- when civilization collapses small groups of urban elite will be able to sustain their urban gardens peacefully</span><br>this just makes me start to imagine all kinds of horrible scenarios (ie. Cormac McCarthy's "The Road"). If anything in history has been proven, it's that in the wake of civil collapse, things get brutal, nasty, and life becomes survival through the threat and act of physical violence. It's also pretty safe to assume that the uncontrolled fires, pollution from destroyed industry, and lack of clean water and waste removal will make any kind of urban farming impossible.<br>
<br><span style="font-weight:bold">- before the industrial era, everyone lived in small tribal societies who produced a minimal impact on the landbases they relied on</span><br>i can't even begin to go into why this is a historical perspective which bears no resemblance to reality. past human cultures have been as
varied and complex as one could ever imagine. <br><br><span style="font-weight:bold">- when civilization collapses, we can go back to living like these small tribal societies once did<span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><br>
</span></span></span></span></span>i'm afraid that we will have polluted our landbases and altered climate to such an extent that it would be impossible to support anything close to present day population numbers on the untainted resources which still exis<span style="font-weight:bold">t,</span> no matter what structures we put in place.<span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><br>
<br></span></span></span></span></span>sorry, that all sounds pretty nihilistic - and - i'm curious what motivates us (me?) to do this
work, and what, really, is the expectation and/or outcome that we're working towards?<span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><br>
<br></span></span></span></span></span>thanks y'all, and thank-you for caring enough to explore these issues.<br><br> - chris galanis<span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><span style="font-weight:bold"><br>
</span></span></span></span></span><br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 1/21/11, <a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> <i><<a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px"><br>From:
<a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> <<a href="mailto:chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>
Subject: <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7<br>To: <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a>@<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
Received: Friday, January 21, 2011, 2:37 PM<br><br><div>Send <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
<br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
<br>or, via email, send a message with
subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
<br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
<br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> digest..."<br>
<br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Rachel A. Buddeberg)<br> 2. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Harshal
Deshmukh)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:11:28 -0800<br>From: "Rachel A. Buddeberg" <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">rachel@rabe.org</a>><br>
To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br> intersect" <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>Message-ID: <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org" target="_blank">7E3286A0-3F61-4FB5-A14F-6270CA452AB3@rabe.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br><br>Reading your thoughts
about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the ethical guidelines if we do not also address the issues of justice? It is not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to backyards? As i wrote before: I
am worried that if we do not address all the interlinked issue<br> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just in a different context... <br><br>Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San Francisco (except Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance. The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in
areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we want the future to look like? <br><br>Rachel<br><br>On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:<br><br>> Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement. I don't think there is a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture. Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook. He also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything
could technically be included in what we call permaculture.<br>> <br>> That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was born. It is barely mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella of permaculture?<br>
> <br>> Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and
microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of a hydroponic system? Some would say that too should be included in permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to answer questions like this for themselves.<br>
> <br>> Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to achieve our full potential as human beings. Does
that mean that we should offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant for an open discussion like this one.<br>
> <br>> So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one that addresses personal and social
issues. But is it our primary mission to fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together? We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd try to give the discussion context.<br>
> <br>> Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.<br>> <br>> ~Larry<br>> <br>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com" target="_blank">jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> I agree with Larry. While permaculture practices can certainly have many beneficial
impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.<br>
> <br>> I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.<br>
> <br>> Jason<br>> <br>> On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM, <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> wrote:<br>
> <br>> > Send <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list submissions to<br>> > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> ><br>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> > <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
> ><br>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> ><br>> > You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> ><br>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> > than "Re: Contents of <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> digest..."<br>
> ><br>> ><br>> > Today's Topics:<br>> ><br>> > 1. Re: Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > Message: 1<br>> > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800<br>> > From: Larry Korn <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldkorn@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>> > intersect" <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>
> > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>> > Message-ID:<br>> > <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>> ><br>> > Hello all,<br>> ><br>> > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing<br>> > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will wither.<br>
> > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these<br>> > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what others<br>> > think about this.<br>> ><br>
> > ~Larry<br>> ><br>> > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">rachel@rabe.org</a>>wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to
me. We need<br>> >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of living. We<br>> >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about<br>> >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we live,<br>
> >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more, though, i<br>> >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other<br>> >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined. And that<br>
> >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if we<br>> >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own food?<br>> >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just<br>
> >> society? How can we ensure that it does?<br>> >><br>> >> I am
troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of actively<br>> >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the<br>> >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our neighborhoods are<br>
> >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not everybody<br>> >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have to<br>> >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am troubled<br>
> >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.<br>> >> 267-9). I thought we had overcome "separate but complementary culture"<br>> >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female dichotomy does<br>
> >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.<br>> >><br>> >> Justice, of course,
is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me, a<br>> >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is supported by<br>> >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if we<br>
> >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more formal<br>> >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow reflect<br>> >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)<br>
> >><br>> >> So, the questions i am asking us are:<br>> >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of<br>> >> justice?<br>> >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just<br>
> >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is distributed<br>> >> unjustly?<br>> >>
? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?<br>> >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove obstacles<br>> >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?<br>
> >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate? Are<br>> >> we preventing some people from participating? If so, how? Can we overcome<br>> >> those obstacles?<br>> >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how<br>
> >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?<br>> >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe it<br>> >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge<br>
> >> impacts on the way we live, so
maybe by changing this one thing everything<br>> >> else will follow?<br>> >><br>> >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions. Also,<br>> >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do incorporate<br>
> >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they do this?<br>> >><br>> >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!<br>> >><br>> >> Rachel<br>> >><br>
> >><br>> >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:<br>> >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just<br>> >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still<br>
> >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond the<br>> >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define
justice much<br>> >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked at the<br>> >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more<br>> >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition, capabilities, and<br>
> >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social<br>> >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader definition.<br>> >><br>> >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues<br>
> >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):<br>> >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of environmental<br>> >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)<br>
> >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans<br>> >> might have a
different relationship to land or water than the predominant<br>> >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to honor<br>> >> recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights. (Iris<br>
> >> Young; Nancy Fraser)<br>> >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives. If<br>> >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown into<br>
> >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their fullest<br>> >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)<br>> >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we ensure<br>
> >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that disadvantaged/oppressed<br>> >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living downstream<br>> >> might need veto rights
on any decisions made by the people living upstream.<br>> >> (Iris Marion Young)<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> >><br>> >> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
> >><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > --<br>> > <a href="http://www.onestrawrevolution.net" target="_blank">www.onestrawrevolution.net</a><br>> > -------------- next part --------------<br>
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> > URL: <<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110119/b52795ce/attachment.html" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110119/b52795ce/attachment.html</a>><br>
> ><br>> > ------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>
> > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> > <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
> ><br>> ><br>> > End of
<a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> Digest, Vol 4, Issue 4<br>> > ***************************************************************<br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>
> <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -- <br>
> <a href="http://www.onestrawrevolution.net" target="_blank">www.onestrawrevolution.net</a><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>
> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:22:26 -0800<br>From: Harshal Deshmukh <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=harshal05@gmail.com" target="_blank">harshal05@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br> intersect" <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture
and Justice<br>Message-ID:<br> <AANLkTinvxA0ZxES=<a href="http://mc/compose?to=Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">Owxcek3-HCEaTL2YCW88ufU344SD@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>Hi all,<br><br>I might not have read a lot of books on social changes or even permaculture<br>and i might even be wrong about a few things here.<br>Reading Rachel's post about a post oil world where everything now suddenly<br>
becomes local, isnt that how things were before we discovered cheap energy?<br>wont be go back to living in small tribal societies and depend on the local<br>environment to help sustain us? there will be a period of chaos and upheaval<br>
when we can no longer sustain ourselves with an oil based economy. but after<br>that i do think the survivors will learn to live sustainably atleast until<br>the next cheap source of energy is
discovered. So maybe Rachel's view point<br>(and i may be wrong in my understanding) is how do we avoid that period of<br>unrest where mostly poor and uneducated people and those who don't have<br>access to resources and how to we prepare them for this change. how do we<br>
prepare ourselves for this change that will if not in our life times, but<br>will surely happen, where we have depleted our natural resources to such an<br>extend that we cannot sustain our way of living. do can we realistically<br>
hope that permaculture or any other method allow us to consume as we do now<br>and still leave this planet a better place.<br>maybe permaculture is about growing food and sustainability.. but i think it<br>is about a change of mindset too. it think it is about earth care, people<br>
care and fair share and any thing that promotes this.. be it yoga classes or<br>teaching people to build soil.. if its advancing those 3 principals then it<br>is permaculture in
my mind.<br>i have started rambling here and should stop.. but it is fun to read these<br>discussions.<br><br>Harshal<br><br><br><br>On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">rachel@rabe.org</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>> Reading your thoughts about offering yoga, reflexology etc and calling it<br>> permaculture, i realize that i might not have made my concerns as clear as i<br>> could have. So, let me try again. I am not trying to suggest that we<br>
> call, say, a fight for equal pay permaculture. The questions i would like<br>> to raise are more along the lines of asking if we are excluding someone if<br>> we offer workshops at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain way. Or<br>
> to put it more generally: Can we really practice permaculture within the<br>> ethical guidelines if we do not also address the
issues of justice? It is<br>> not an attempt to "water down" permaculture or include everything under the<br>> umbrella. It is taking a look at how and where we practice permaculture and<br>> seeing if that meets the fair share criteria. For example, can we really<br>
> ignore the fact that mostly white middle-class people have access to<br>> backyards? As i wrote before: I am worried that if we do not address all<br>> the interlinked issue<br>> s, we might end up with recreating the same problems all over again just<br>
> in a different context...<br>><br>> Let me try to formulate the image that i have in mind when i have these<br>> concerns. Travel with me into the future, please. It's post peak-oil. The<br>> oil-supported economy has collapsed. There is desolation in a lot of the<br>
> country. Yet, there is bounty in a few places. San
Francisco (except<br>> Bayview/Hunters Point), for example, has an abundance of food growing thanks<br>> to the hard work of the people who had the time, money, and energy to<br>> prepare. Those people are almost all white and well educated. Because<br>
> transportation happens via foot, not much food can be shared long distance.<br>> The food cannot be brought to places where there is hunger. And nobody had<br>> thought to help those places prepare. And those places happen to be in<br>
> areas populated by less educated, mostly non-white people. Is this how we<br>> want the future to look like?<br>><br>> Rachel<br>><br>> On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Larry Korn wrote:<br>><br>> > Hi all. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. What is and what not<br>
> permaculture is a topic that is actively discussed throughout the movement.<br>> I don't think there is
a "right" answer to this question. When Bill first<br>> taught the courses he taught the ethics, principles and many techniques for<br>> achieving the goals, including the many aspects of social permaculture.<br>
> Most of this is in the Designer's Manual and the Design Course Handbook.<br>> He also left the door open to include other things as long as they didn't<br>> contradict the ethics and principles. Since permaculture is based on the<br>
> principles of ecology, observing and emulating natural process, and since<br>> ecology teaches us that everything is interconnected, I suppose anything<br>> could technically be included in what we call permaculture.<br>
> ><br>> > That said, each of us has our own ideas of what we think of as basic<br>> permaculture. For example, little was known about using microorganisms for<br>> bioremediation in the 1970's when permaculture was
born. It is barely<br>> mentioned in the early teachings. Now, thanks to the work of Paul Stamets<br>> and others we see how useful using fungi and other microbes can be for<br>> rehabilitating and cleansing soil, particularly those that have been damaged<br>
> by human activity. Is there anyone out there that doesn't think that we<br>> should talk about this and develop this promising field within the umbrella<br>> of permaculture?<br>> ><br>> > Here's a trickier example. Permaculture has a lot of outstanding ideas<br>
> about aquaculture, mainly using ponds, as a way to grow food, clean and<br>> reuse water and provide habitat for other communities of plants, animals and<br>> microorganisms. We can go out into natural areas and see that this is what<br>
> nature does and imitate it in our designs. How about aquaculture as part of<br>> a hydroponic system? Some would
say that too should be included in<br>> permaculture, others think the environment is just too contrived to be<br>> considered "permaculture." They say that while hydroponic aquaculture does<br>> include many of the characteristics we value in permaculture designs it is<br>
> just too human and not at all natural. After all, we cannot find anything<br>> like it in the natural world. So which point of view is correct? That<br>> depends... I think we each, or each local permaculture guild, needs to<br>
> answer questions like this for themselves.<br>> ><br>> > Another example. Among other things, permaculture teaches that<br>> practicing permaculture will help us grow as individuals and help us to<br>
> achieve our full potential as human beings. Does that mean that we should<br>> offer weekend workshops on yoga, reflexology and crystal healing and call it<br>>
permaculture? These are great things and all of them could help us grow as<br>> people and therefore allow us to better observe nature and so forth, but<br>> should the workshop be billed as a Permaculture Workshop? I have my own<br>
> personal ideas about questions like this, but I'm not sure that is relevant<br>> for an open discussion like this one.<br>> ><br>> > So we come to social justice. We all know that there many horrific<br>
> social problems in the world and in our communities that need to be<br>> corrected. Some of us work harder on these issues than others, but we all<br>> believe in working to help create social justice. Certainly practicing<br>
> permaculture will help to solve many of these issues. Just as permaculture<br>> is fundamentally a practice of rehabilitation for the earth it is also one<br>> that addresses personal and social issues. But is it
our primary mission to<br>> fight to change injustice directly or is that better done by simply<br>> practicing our craft and developing new ways of living equitable together?<br>> We all have our personal ideas about this. Some people think it is more<br>
> effective to subvert the system by directly challenging it or by working<br>> within it. Others think that is folly and choose simply to walk away to<br>> create the new reality directly. I don't have the answer, but I thought I'd<br>
> try to give the discussion context.<br>> ><br>> > Please...more thoughts. It's an interesting and important topic.<br>> ><br>> > ~Larry<br>> ><br>> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jason McDaniel <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=jasonamcdaniel@mac.com" target="_blank">jasonamcdaniel@mac.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>> > I agree with Larry. While
permaculture practices can certainly have many<br>> beneficial impacts on society, I think it is a mistake to focus on<br>> permaculture primarily as a means to achieve justice, or as a social justice<br>> movement. In fact, such a focus could potentially be a distraction from the<br>
> hard, slow work of advancing justice in the political arena.<br>> ><br>> > I also take a slight and polite exception to Rachel's claim that<br>> "traditional political philosophy" and "ivory tower" philosophy defines<br>
> justice as only related to material goods. That's simply a misreading of<br>> political philosophy as I know it. But the, this is academic nitpicking on<br>> my part, and I definitely endorse her list of great philosophers such as<br>
> Rawls, Sen, Nussbaum, etc.<br>> ><br>> > Jason<br>> ><br>> > On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:01 PM,<br>> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a> wrote:<br>
> ><br>> > > Send <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list submissions to<br>> > > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> > ><br>> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> > ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
> > ><br>> > > or, via email, send a message
with subject or body 'help' to<br>> > > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-request@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> > ><br>> > > You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> > > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net-owner@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> > ><br>> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> > > than "Re: Contents of <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> digest..."<br>
> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > Today's Topics:<br>> > ><br>> > > 1. Re:
Permaculture and Justice (Larry Korn)<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > ><br>> > > Message: 1<br>> > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:31:21 -0800<br>
> > > From: Larry Korn <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=ldkorn@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldkorn@gmail.com</a>><br>> > > To: "Chapter Fourteen: Where abundant food and human cultures<br>> > > intersect" <<a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a>@<br>
> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">lists.beforebefore.net</a>><br>> > > Subject: Re: [Chapter_Fourteen] Permaculture and Justice<br>> > > Message-ID:<br>> > > <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">AANLkTimh-sFm1wJWHuBfgYJF-AuhrapNZhy6CXMa-QtF@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>> > ><br>> > > Hello all,<br>> > ><br>> > > Thank you, Rachel for this posting. It's true that by practicing<br>
> > > permaculture many of the problems leading to social injustice will<br>> wither.<br>> > > I'm not sure that permaculture is the venue to directly address these<br>> > > issues. That's just my personal opinion. I would love to hear what<br>
> others<br>> > > think about this.<br>> > ><br>> > > ~Larry<br>> > ><br>> > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <<a href="http://mc/compose?to=rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">rachel@rabe.org</a><br>
> >wrote:<br>> >
><br>> > >> I discovered permaculture last summer. It made total sense to me. We<br>> need<br>> > >> to move away from our growth-oriented, self-destructive way of living.<br>> We<br>
> > >> need to rethink the way we live. To me, permaculture is all about<br>> > >> redesigning our culture. To me, that means everything - the way we<br>> live,<br>> > >> the way we interact, the way we eat, etc. As i was reading more,<br>
> though, i<br>> > >> noticed a pattern: Most people focused on how to grow our food. Other<br>> > >> aspects - raised in Chapter 14 - were often ignored, or sidelined.<br>> And that<br>> > >> didn't seem to bother anybody. Was there nobody wondering out loud if<br>
> we<br>> > >> need to ask some more questions while we learn how to grow our own<br>>
food?<br>> > >> So, let me start wondering out loud: Does permaculture create a just<br>> > >> society? How can we ensure that it does?<br>> > >><br>> > >> I am troubled by the absence, within the permaculture movement, of<br>
> actively<br>> > >> addressing current injustices. If we repair intersections within the<br>> > >> current neighborhoods, we do not address the fact that our<br>> neighborhoods are<br>> > >> segregated. If we grow food in our backyards, we ignore that not<br>
> everybody<br>> > >> has backyards, nor the time to work in the backyard because they have<br>> to<br>> > >> work 3 jobs to earn enough to even live somewhere. And then i am<br>> troubled<br>
> > >> by Holmgren's gender balance suggestion (in Principles & Pathways, p.<br>> > >> 267-9). I thought we
had overcome "separate but complementary<br>> culture"<br>> > >> (274). More importantly, though, his view of the male-female<br>> dichotomy does<br>> > >> not recognize that men and women are not as different as many claim.<br>
> > >><br>> > >> Justice, of course, is a very broad, often rather vague term. To me,<br>> a<br>> > >> just society is one where everyone matters, where everyone is<br>> supported by<br>
> > >> society to reach their potential, where all voices are heard even if<br>> we<br>> > >> don't like what they say (or how they say it). I am adding a more<br>> formal<br>> > >> way of approaching it below. The questions i am pondering somehow<br>
> reflect<br>> > >> that definition? (Or those definitions?)<br>> > >><br>> > >> So, the questions i am asking us
are:<br>> > >> ? How can we ensure that permaculture addresses all aspects of<br>> > >> justice?<br>> > >> ? How can we use permaculture principles to ensure just<br>
> > >> distribution of resources in a world where almost everything is<br>> distributed<br>> > >> unjustly?<br>> > >> ? How can we recognize everybody impacted by our work?<br>
> > >> ? How can we utilize everybody's skills and remove<br>> obstacles<br>> > >> from our paths that prevent us from living to our fullest potential?<br>> > >> ? How can we make sure that everybody can participate?<br>
> Are<br>> > >> we preventing some people from
participating? If so, how? Can we<br>> overcome<br>> > >> those obstacles?<br>> > >> ? Are there any stories we can share that illustrate how<br>> > >> permaculture addresses these aspects or how it doesn't?<br>
> > >> ? Could - or even should - permaculture address all this? Maybe<br>> it<br>> > >> is enough to grow our food differently, after all agriculture had huge<br>> > >> impacts on the way we live, so maybe by changing this one thing<br>
> everything<br>> > >> else will follow?<br>> > >><br>> > >> I would love it if we could discuss some or all of these questions.<br>> Also,<br>> > >> if you know of or are involved in permaculture projects that do<br>
> incorporate<br>> > >> fights for justice, please let me know! I'd love to learn how they
do<br>> this?<br>> > >><br>> > >> Looking forward to a lively discussion!<br>> > >><br>> > >> Rachel<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> And if you're really interested in the academic background, read on:<br>
> > >> Traditionally, political philosophers defined justice as the just<br>> > >> distribution of material goods. Although that definition is still<br>> > >> surprisingly prevalent in philosophy, those philosophers who go beyond<br>
> the<br>> > >> ivory tower have noticed that social justice movements define justice<br>> much<br>> > >> more broadly. There's David Schlosberg, for example, who has looked<br>> at the<br>
> > >> environmental justice movement and argued that it defines justice more<br>> > >> broadly, including adding aspects of recognition,
capabilities, and<br>> > >> participation. And then Iris Marion Young specifically credits social<br>> > >> movements for helping her see the need to develop a broader<br>> definition.<br>> > >><br>
> > >> Let me clarify each aspect of justice a bit using environmental issues<br>> > >> (primary philosophers are listed in parentheses):<br>> > >> ? Distribution means that all bear an equal burden of<br>
> environmental<br>> > >> pollution and get equal benefits of natural resources. (John Rawls)<br>> > >> ? Recognition means that people are recognized: Native Americans<br>> > >> might have a different relationship to land or water than the<br>
> predominant<br>> > >> White-European view. Recognition respects this. We might need to<br>> honor<br>> > >>
recognition by giving oppressed groups special participation rights.<br>> (Iris<br>> > >> Young; Nancy Fraser)<br>> > >> ? Capabilities transform the stuff we get into fulfilling lives.<br>
> If<br>> > >> the soil where we live is polluted, no matter how much money is thrown<br>> into<br>> > >> the schools in that area, kids won't be able to develop to their<br>> fullest<br>
> > >> potential. (Amartya Sen; Martha Nussbaum)<br>> > >> ? Participation means that everybody can participate, that we<br>> ensure<br>> > >> that barriers to participation are removed, and that<br>
> disadvantaged/oppressed<br>> > >> groups have particular rights. For example, the folks living<br>> downstream<br>> > >> might need veto rights on any decisions made by the people living<br>
> upstream.<br>>
> >> (Iris Marion Young)<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> _______________________________________________<br>> > >> <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>
> > >> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>
> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> > >><br>> > ><br>
> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > --<br>> > > <a href="http://www.onestrawrevolution.net" target="_blank">www.onestrawrevolution.net</a><br>> > > -------------- next part --------------<br>
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> > > URL:
<<br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110119/b52795ce/attachment.html" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110119/b52795ce/attachment.html</a><br>
> ><br>> > ><br>> > > ------------------------------<br>> > ><br>> > > _______________________________________________<br>> > > <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>
> > > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> > ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
>
> ><br>> > ><br>> > > End of <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> Digest, Vol 4, Issue 4<br>> > > ***************************************************************<br>
> ><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>> > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>> ><br>> ><br>
> ><br>> > --<br>> > <a href="http://www.onestrawrevolution.net" target="_blank">www.onestrawrevolution.net</a><br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a>
mailing list<br>> > <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>> ><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>> <a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
><br>> <a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110121/165161f2/attachment.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/pipermail/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net/attachments/20110121/165161f2/attachment.htm</a>><br>
<br>------------------------------<br><br>_______________________________________________<br><a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br><a href="http://mc/compose?to=chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net@lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br><br><br>End of <a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> Digest, Vol 4, Issue 7<br>
***************************************************************<br></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a> mailing list<br>
<a href="http://chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a>@<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net" target="_blank">lists.beforebefore.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>sf urban ag alliance @ <a href="http://sfuaa.org" target="_blank">sfuaa.org</a><div>movie and blog @ <a href="http://insearchofgoodfood.org" target="_blank">insearchofgoodfood.org</a><br>
community farm @ <a href="http://www.alemanyfarm.org" target="_blank">www.alemanyfarm.org</a><br>permaculty @ <a href="http://www.permaculture-sf.org" target="_blank">www.permaculture-sf.org</a><br>newspaper @ <a href="http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/" target="_blank">http://soex.org/alternativeexposure/index.php/antonio-roman-alcala/</a><br>
personal music @ <a href="http://www.myspace.com/ammra" target="_blank">www.myspace.com/ammra</a><br>people people @<a href="http://www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity" target="_blank">www.myspace.com/mercurialbombastictenacity</a></div>
<br>
</div>