<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">some foucault and tangential permaculture...<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><span lang="en-US">The
analysis of power </span><font style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1"><span lang="en-US"><i><b>“should
not concern itself with the regulated and legitimate forms of power
in their central locations', </b></i></span></font><font style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1"><span lang="en-US"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>but
</b></span></span></font><font style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1"><span lang="en-US"><i><b>'with
power at its extremities, in its ultimate destinations, with those
points where it becomes capillary...”</b></i></span></font><font style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1"><span lang="en-US"><b>
</b></span></font><font style="font-size: 8pt;" size="1"><span lang="en-US"><i><b>“...the
point where power surmounts the rules of right which organize and
delimit it, and extends itself beyond them...”</b></i></span></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" lang="en-US"><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><i>p.96
"Two Lectures." Power / Knowledge: Selected Interviews and
Other Writings, 1972-1977. Ed.</i></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><i>Colin
Gordon. Brighton: Harvester, 1980.</i></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">This
'de-centered' interpretation of power and its potential pragmatic
implications, (of which I had personally been generally skeptical),
is what I was referring to in offering 'Permaculture' as a kind of
qualified, (obviously 'minimalizing'), 'acquittal' of Foucault. While he himself did not focus on
pragmatist 'action' per se, my point would be that as one does look
at Permaculture based 'action', (essntially building-rebuilding
sustainable/resilient ecologies from the ground up), Foucault's
conceptual formation presents an imageable overlay on which to map
the coherence/co-adherents of that action as influence and
organizational transformation moves back </span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US"><i>up</i></span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">
the scale. </span></font></font></font></font></font>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">The
example we're all somewhat involved in would obviously be this broad
question of transforming food production/land use
patterns-distribution networks-consumption patterns. At one end of
the scale there might be agribusiness-trade regimes-federal
subsidies-commodities trading/global shipping-big box
distribution/advertising-predatory pricing...</span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US"><i>(collectively
represented as juridicial or monarchic power in the liberal and
marxist models)</i></span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">.
But it is the other end of the scale, at the most discrete level, </span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US"><i>the
'capillary' level</i></span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">,
where Foucault's model suggests the power actually manifests itself,
in what you put into your mouth on a daily basis, in the not so subtle
coercion to 'super size', to accept the putative convenience the system offers, to 'pay
no attention to the infrastructure behind the 'package', etc.</span></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">Conventional
'structuralist' thinking, (simplified into cliché, (and I still
consider myself to be something of a structuralist...), might argue
that one person's organic garden or individual food choices cannot
really impact such a large scale problem; That It must be attacked closer
to the multiple heads, at the level of trade accords and protocols,
perhaps with direct action against the companies/the W.T.O., better
mass organizing strategies, mass boycotts, etc...</span></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">Permaculture,
it seems to me,(without any necessity for discarding other
transformational strategies), has a relatively inspiring track record
of more or less </span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US"><i>doing</i></span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">
the solution, and allowing the collective 'power' of the idea to
accumulate discretely. And in that way, making the case, maybe more
effectively than many louder voices, that it is actually possible to
impact the problem from the 'ground' up. <br></span></font></font></font></font></font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">Refs.:</span></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">The
Two Lectures writings cited above should be attached, the relevant
section is page 11 of the PDF, (Pg. 96 of the text.)</span></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font color="#000000"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><span lang="en-US">Also attached: Chandra
Kumar, “Foucault, Disciplinary Power, and the 'Decentering' of
Political Thought, A Marxian View” 2009</span></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT">
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">On
the question of how 'necessary' private property might be. I'd also
be interested if anyone could present some sort of model of organization/non organization and argue how it might scale, while avoiding the well
known pitfalls of the past. Malcolm X once said: “Revolution has
never been about a cup of coffee at a lunch counter; Its about
land....” As long as there are hierarchies, there generally have to be a boundaries, literal or otherwise, almost by default. (typically starting with the protection of children...) <br></span></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">Also
might say that, at least in some measure, it is the very particular
position of specialization that confers a certain 'comfort' v.a.v. decision making. Not sure how long the list would be
of people would feel comfortable spontaneously making the same
decision. But at the same time, I don't think that is necessarily a
bad thing. Hierarchies have an upside, (if they are transparent and
accountable...couple of big if's...'--) <br></span></font></font></font></font></font></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><br><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US"></span></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><font face="Verdana, sans-serif"><font style="font-size: 9pt;" size="2"><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font size="2"><span lang="en-US">ron.<br></span></font></font></font></font></font>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"></p><br><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="LEFT"><br>
</p>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 12:43 PM, margaretha haughwout <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xmargarethax@gmail.com">xmargarethax@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
dear ron & rachel,<div><br></div><div>absolutely - break the protocols! ha. we'll have moderators every two weeks who will introduce a topic, a problem, an assertion, or a solution for the list. they hopefully inspire conversation and debate with the intention of deepening our sense of what are the possible and ethical steps we can take to move into a regenerative world... jay rosenberg and i will put forward some stories in the next couple of days about the fence line at hayes valley farm, about how we find heroin needles in our broccoli plants, and the reach of the decisions we make about that fence.... we're looking forward to your engagement!</div>
<div><br></div><div>that said spontaneous conversations around chapter fourteen topics on this list are very welcome also!</div><div><br></div><div>in regards to your the topics you raise - </div><div>a) how is permaculture an "<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;">acquittal of Foucault" ? wondering what texts of foucault you could quote or refer us to here. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;">b) i want to challenge the thinking that there must be land ownership. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure" target="_blank">enclosure</a> seems to me to be one of the most damaging movements in the western world. what if we unraveled the idea of property. how could we begin to do this? perhaps to show how much more fun it is to share land, to close loops in empty lots, share yields, invite folks into your backyard, etc. slow and steady solutions.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;">c) permaculture, being in part the reinvigoration of ecological systems through feedback and "closing loops" is also geared toward making food forests, flourishing systems that also produce yields. the idea is that these food forests, as opposed to current "top down" agricultural practices, require very little inputs. in turn the yield also is more diverse and more abundant (compare an acre of food forest to an acre of corn...). this is to say yes, i think we can still have dentists. but the impetus becomes not necessarily one of survival (must have a job to survive) but one of real curiosity and desire to contribute to community, health, etc. one of the questions becomes: if you have food, community and shelter, what do you want to do for your community, rather than what do you have to do. i am hesitant to come up with state, top down rules and laws to make examples of how this is possible - maybe someone can step in here to fill in some of the blanks. i'd love to hear an anarchist perspective on how people self organize... because it is an issue of self organization. i don't see how self organization is possible if we put a price on land, and people own it. in one scenario we act in service to land and in another we act in service to the wealthy, the dollar.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;">i can speak a little to self organization (bottom up models) through what i've seen at hayes valley farm in this regard. i've seen people, myself included, first come on the farm and say "look i have this specialty that is of value!" "you need me because of my specialty!" what i've noticed over time is that, while people still have specializations, we all also find great satisfaction from dedicating at least part of our time to the needs of the moment, and the more mundane needs of the farm. it's an interesting transition to note: the dominant culture tells us we are not valuable to others unless we have a specialty, but on the farm, where the orientation is more cooperative, we are valued not just for a specialty we may have, but also for our responsiveness to the needs of the moment, for our ability to work together, do at least some mundane tasks, etc. etc. most of my time these days in spent in the greenhouse and in research, but the other day i walked by the front gate and noticed it needed some attention, so i planted some trees, comfrey and clover. i think when the orientation is toward self organization, we have a more nuanced responsiveness that allows for specialization (into dentistry, for example) but also that allows for deep pleasure in responding to the needs of nature, self, and community...</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; border-collapse: collapse;">much more can be said here. in my opinion these questions dive to the heart of how we get from here to there.</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>my friend aimee reminded me of permaculture principle #4 yesterday: "<a href="http://permacultureprinciples.com/principle_4.php" target="_blank">accept feedback and apply self regulation</a>"</div>
<div><br></div><div>all the best,</div><div>/m</div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 9:31 AM, ron stanford <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rstan1122@gmail.com" target="_blank">rstan1122@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">realized that might have sounded like Shakespeare championed Jay, the bastard...not quite was i was thinking, although Shakespeare no doubt would have loved jay, i don't think he's actually a bastard, either literally or figuratively...the long lost thought there was more an off-handed defense of 'non-pedigree' thinking...(really...(sic...))... <br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">rachel@rabe.org</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;"><div>Not quite sure what protocols you might have breeched... I found your question intriguing because I've wondered about that myself. It seems that not everyone might become a successful farmer... Given our knowledge of where markets can lead - at least the unregulated kinds - maybe exchange might be better. Historically, when buyer and seller haggled directly, prices tended to be fairer than now when most of the money I pay for athletic shoes (for example) goes into the pockets of the CEO of [fill in your least favorite shoe company]. I can't haggle - and neither can the person ask for higher wages. Of course, there remain other power-differentials to watch out for in 1-on-1 markets. I am sure that the craftsperson didn't feel as comfortable setting a price for a nobleperson... <div>
<br></div></div><div><font color="#888888">Rachel</font><div><div></div><div><br><div><br><div><div><div>On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, ron stanford wrote:</div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
not quite sure how the idea exchange here is supposed to work, but just diving in: (as a relative neophyte), marvelously impressed by the gravity of fukuoka, the look of his 'farm', the food forest concept, seed balls, etc. My first question v.a.v. discussion would be the macro level implications of.traditional property rights and markets/ exchange of 'surplus'. Recognizing that permaculture, (seems to me), is something, (literally), of a ground up' concept, (the best e.g. acquittal of Foucault i've personally encountered...), i wonder about the convergence of enlightened 'ground up' food production and the perhaps not so comfortable atrophy of top down-large scale production/distribution models.<br>
In the new model, if one is not specifically a grower, or one in possession of land, (maybe a dedicated painter/writer/old school doctor, etc.), is there the comfortable possibility of making one's 'specialized' way, without being a 'farmer' oneself, (and not relying on charity, strictly speaking...), that is, an exchange, a market, where services/goods/produce can be priced? <br>
<br>have no doubt breeched any number of protocols, but...testing, testing...is this thing on...? ...'--)<br><br>ron. <br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Jay <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:protojay@gmail.com" target="_blank">protojay@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><p>Website: <a href="http://onestrawrevolution.net/" target="_blank">onestrawrevolution.net</a></p>
<p>Chapter 14 discussion invite</p>
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