oh, and i brought up the fact of very few inputs to say that once flourishing ecologies are in place, it is possible that very little energy would need to be put into them by anyone (depending on where one lives)... this is not the case as we get them going, but i do think we can envision circumstances where food is distributed by virtue of an abundance, food grows perennially, all over, and does not require the attention of all people to flourish, produce yield, or to process....<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 12:43 PM, margaretha haughwout <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xmargarethax@gmail.com">xmargarethax@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
dear ron & rachel,<div><br></div><div>absolutely - break the protocols! ha. we'll have moderators every two weeks who will introduce a topic, a problem, an assertion, or a solution for the list. they hopefully inspire conversation and debate with the intention of deepening our sense of what are the possible and ethical steps we can take to move into a regenerative world... jay rosenberg and i will put forward some stories in the next couple of days about the fence line at hayes valley farm, about how we find heroin needles in our broccoli plants, and the reach of the decisions we make about that fence.... we're looking forward to your engagement!</div>
<div><br></div><div>that said spontaneous conversations around chapter fourteen topics on this list are very welcome also!</div><div><br></div><div>in regards to your the topics you raise - </div><div>a) how is permaculture an "<span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse">acquittal of Foucault" ? wondering what texts of foucault you could quote or refer us to here. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse">b) i want to challenge the thinking that there must be land ownership. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure" target="_blank">enclosure</a> seems to me to be one of the most damaging movements in the western world. what if we unraveled the idea of property. how could we begin to do this? perhaps to show how much more fun it is to share land, to close loops in empty lots, share yields, invite folks into your backyard, etc. slow and steady solutions.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse">c) permaculture, being in part the reinvigoration of ecological systems through feedback and "closing loops" is also geared toward making food forests, flourishing systems that also produce yields. the idea is that these food forests, as opposed to current "top down" agricultural practices, require very little inputs. in turn the yield also is more diverse and more abundant (compare an acre of food forest to an acre of corn...). this is to say yes, i think we can still have dentists. but the impetus becomes not necessarily one of survival (must have a job to survive) but one of real curiosity and desire to contribute to community, health, etc. one of the questions becomes: if you have food, community and shelter, what do you want to do for your community, rather than what do you have to do. i am hesitant to come up with state, top down rules and laws to make examples of how this is possible - maybe someone can step in here to fill in some of the blanks. i'd love to hear an anarchist perspective on how people self organize... because it is an issue of self organization. i don't see how self organization is possible if we put a price on land, and people own it. in one scenario we act in service to land and in another we act in service to the wealthy, the dollar.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse">i can speak a little to self organization (bottom up models) through what i've seen at hayes valley farm in this regard. i've seen people, myself included, first come on the farm and say "look i have this specialty that is of value!" "you need me because of my specialty!" what i've noticed over time is that, while people still have specializations, we all also find great satisfaction from dedicating at least part of our time to the needs of the moment, and the more mundane needs of the farm. it's an interesting transition to note: the dominant culture tells us we are not valuable to others unless we have a specialty, but on the farm, where the orientation is more cooperative, we are valued not just for a specialty we may have, but also for our responsiveness to the needs of the moment, for our ability to work together, do at least some mundane tasks, etc. etc. most of my time these days in spent in the greenhouse and in research, but the other day i walked by the front gate and noticed it needed some attention, so i planted some trees, comfrey and clover. i think when the orientation is toward self organization, we have a more nuanced responsiveness that allows for specialization (into dentistry, for example) but also that allows for deep pleasure in responding to the needs of nature, self, and community...</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;border-collapse:collapse">much more can be said here. in my opinion these questions dive to the heart of how we get from here to there.</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>my friend aimee reminded me of permaculture principle #4 yesterday: "<a href="http://permacultureprinciples.com/principle_4.php" target="_blank">accept feedback and apply self regulation</a>"</div>
<div><br></div><div>all the best,</div><div>/m</div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 9:31 AM, ron stanford <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rstan1122@gmail.com" target="_blank">rstan1122@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">realized that might have sounded like Shakespeare championed Jay, the bastard...not quite was i was thinking, although Shakespeare no doubt would have loved jay, i don't think he's actually a bastard, either literally or figuratively...the long lost thought there was more an off-handed defense of 'non-pedigree' thinking...(really...(sic...))... <br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Rachel A. Buddeberg <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rachel@rabe.org" target="_blank">rachel@rabe.org</a>></span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Not quite sure what protocols you might have breeched... I found your question intriguing because I've wondered about that myself. It seems that not everyone might become a successful farmer... Given our knowledge of where markets can lead - at least the unregulated kinds - maybe exchange might be better. Historically, when buyer and seller haggled directly, prices tended to be fairer than now when most of the money I pay for athletic shoes (for example) goes into the pockets of the CEO of [fill in your least favorite shoe company]. I can't haggle - and neither can the person ask for higher wages. Of course, there remain other power-differentials to watch out for in 1-on-1 markets. I am sure that the craftsperson didn't feel as comfortable setting a price for a nobleperson... <div>
<br></div></div><div><font color="#888888">Rachel</font><div><div></div><div><br><div><br><div><div><div>On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, ron stanford wrote:</div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
not quite sure how the idea exchange here is supposed to work, but just diving in: (as a relative neophyte), marvelously impressed by the gravity of fukuoka, the look of his 'farm', the food forest concept, seed balls, etc. My first question v.a.v. discussion would be the macro level implications of.traditional property rights and markets/ exchange of 'surplus'. Recognizing that permaculture, (seems to me), is something, (literally), of a ground up' concept, (the best e.g. acquittal of Foucault i've personally encountered...), i wonder about the convergence of enlightened 'ground up' food production and the perhaps not so comfortable atrophy of top down-large scale production/distribution models.<br>
In the new model, if one is not specifically a grower, or one in possession of land, (maybe a dedicated painter/writer/old school doctor, etc.), is there the comfortable possibility of making one's 'specialized' way, without being a 'farmer' oneself, (and not relying on charity, strictly speaking...), that is, an exchange, a market, where services/goods/produce can be priced? <br>
<br>have no doubt breeched any number of protocols, but...testing, testing...is this thing on...? ...'--)<br><br>ron. <br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Jay <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:protojay@gmail.com" target="_blank">protojay@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p>Website: <a href="http://onestrawrevolution.net/" target="_blank">onestrawrevolution.net</a></p>
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<div><span style="font-size:12.5px;color:rgb(136, 136, 136)"><br></span></div><div>Lead Researcher, Hayes Valley Farm</div><div><a href="http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/" style="color:rgb(17, 37, 8)" target="_blank">http://www.hayesvalleyfarm.com/</a></div>
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<div><br>Lecturer, Film and Digital Media<br>University of California Santa Cruz<br>Communications 151<br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://lists.beforebefore.net/listinfo.cgi/chapter_fourteen-beforebefore.net" target="_blank">chapter fourteen</a><br>
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